3 ms·

This is the one market where I would be happy for the cryptobros to move in and start hoarding. I’d almost forgive them for NFTs if IPv4-hodling turned out to b

by jl6 5y ago

This is the one market where I would be happy for the cryptobros to move in and start hoarding. I’d almost forgive them for NFTs if IPv4-hodling turned out to be the thing that finally catalyzes the move to IPv6.

ozim 5y ago
Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. I can see an incentive to form a small time ISP as an investment though but that is also quite a hands on investment unlike NFT or some coins where you buy and keep.
- jl6 5y ago
  What counts as “not used”? If I set up some minimal websites hosting one ape picture per IP address, is that used? Do the registries have a concept of frivolous use?
  - zekica 5y ago
    It's counted as used if it is advertised via BGP.
  - ozim 5y ago
    I don't know. But even setting one ape per IP address is still quite hands on and involved investment, you have to know how to do it or you have to hire and pay someone who knows how to do it. Then you still have some operation cost as you probably cannot assign whole IP block to a single server and keeping server running still costs money. So I was only think about situation where you simply buy like /24 block and keep it.
  - technothrasher 5y ago
    I’ve got a /24 that hasn’t had any use at all since about 1998, and in fact is registered to a company that no longer exists, with me as the only point of contact. Nobody has ever come for it. I wouldn’t be overly upset if they did, as I don’t have any use for it, but I’ve never felt like proactively giving it up either.
    - hansel_der 5y ago
      i feel like this is the prime example of why only around 200mio ipv4 addresses are seen on the internet (out of the possible 4b) http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3194.html http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3194.html
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. You can lease addresses: * https://circleid.com/posts/20210608-leasing-vs-buying-ipv4-addresses https://circleid.com/posts/20210608-leasing-vs-buying-ipv4-a... The addresses get allocated to Company A which then turns around and allows Company B to use them for a monthly fee and they become routable/pingable. If someone doesn't have enough in their CapEx budget to buy a block then they can put it into their OpEx.
  - ozim 5y ago
    But complexity of this investment is still far away from "buy and hold" so cryptobros won't jump on that train.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Still sinpler than credit default swaps, and CDOs, and options on commodities, and we have so many people investing in them without understanding
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      Perhaps someone can create an IPv4 ETF. :)
- phil21 5y ago
  > Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. No longer true, depending on the RIR and their exact policies. At least RIPE and ARIN see leasing blocks as proper usage. The only thing you might run into a snag with would be if you had zero customers leasing blocks within the region the RIR is responsible for. For example, if you have a /19 assigned to ARIN right now and want to lease it to a European entity announcing it from Europe, you might need to transfer it to RIPE so the proper party gets paid membership dues. It's certainly more hands on than holding equities (or crypto), much like renting out a few apartments is more effort than simply holding an REIT. Quite doable for anyone with an ISP/infrastructure background and capital to put into acquiring ipv4 blocks. It's actually much easier then renting out real estate (I do both), as it's mostly just jumping on tickets that need you to click a couple buttons every so often. If you find some stable/large lessees, it's more or less set it and forget it for N number of years. I'm not sure I'd advise people to jump into this market when IPv4 is hitting $50 per address, but I've also thought the "top" was in years ago so what do I know :) I've pondered for a few years now somehow offering "IPv4 investors" fractional ownership of an LLC stood up to lease out address blocks - I just never had the time to get through the legal/tax complexity of having 50-100 partners all pooling capital. Banks are surprisingly willing to finance these acquisitions as well, assuming you have an industry track record.
  - oarsinsync 5y ago
    > I'm not sure I'd advise people to jump into this market when IPv4 is hitting $50 per address, but I've also thought the "top" was in years ago so what do I know :) You and me both. I sold half my IPv4 holding at $20 (having bought in at $8), and am both annoyed and glad that I only did half, since I can now afford to sell the remaining 25% at a high premium, and maintain my remaining /24 and ASN as a vanity project for many decades.
- kloch 5y ago
  I'm not speaking for ARIN but their CEO John Curran told me ARIN has never revoked address resources for any reason other than non-payment or fraud. As long as your original application for the resources was made in good faith and you continued to pay the registration fees, they would not take them away even if you are not using them anymore. This seems logical for functional IPv4 markets where the non-use/non-need is explicit in any resource being offered for sale. The registered organization does still need to be "in business" (registered in good standing with the state corporation commission or equivalent). If the entity is dissolved then the resources automatically revert back to ARIN and it may be difficult or impossible to sell to a third party. It is important to keep ARIN updated with any organization name changes, reorganization, or M&A actions as they happen. Going back 10+ years to update those changes, especially if there are several, can be extremely difficult. In large companies the network folks that manage ARIN resources are often not even be aware of those changes until they interact with ARIN again. That has bitten me several times in my career. In the old days before IPv4 runout they could and would refuse to issue additional IP blocks if you did not show sufficient utilization of your most recent allocation. It was also not unusual for them to reduce the allocation size requested based on how fast you had utilized your most recent block.
  - wmf 5y ago
    Hoarding IP addresses probably is fraud because to get IPs you have to swear that they will be put into use within a year (IIRC). I don't consider IP leasing to be hoarding because the IPs are in use.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  > Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. Define "not used". I know several LIRs that have in excess of /20s allocated to them, and do not advertise their ranges to the (Internet) DFZ, but instead use them on private interlinks between themselves and other third parties. The only requirement to be given address space by an RIR is a requirement for global uniqueness. Just because you don't see it on the Internet (or any other network you use), doesn't mean it's not in use. IPv4 is knocking on death's door, and the value will drop once the DoD gives (6 years) notice that they've migrated all their services to IPv6, thus making 10? /8s available for sale and: 1. flooding the market 2. proving that there's nothing left holding back to run an ipv6-only network, resulting in wide scale migrations for networks that haven't migrated yet.

by jl6 5y ago

ozim 5y ago

Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. I can see an incentive to form a small time ISP as an investment though but that is also quite a hands on investment unlike NFT or some coins where you buy and keep.

jl6 5y ago
What counts as “not used”? If I set up some minimal websites hosting one ape picture per IP address, is that used? Do the registries have a concept of frivolous use?
- zekica 5y ago
  It's counted as used if it is advertised via BGP.
- ozim 5y ago
  I don't know. But even setting one ape per IP address is still quite hands on and involved investment, you have to know how to do it or you have to hire and pay someone who knows how to do it. Then you still have some operation cost as you probably cannot assign whole IP block to a single server and keeping server running still costs money. So I was only think about situation where you simply buy like /24 block and keep it.
- technothrasher 5y ago
  I’ve got a /24 that hasn’t had any use at all since about 1998, and in fact is registered to a company that no longer exists, with me as the only point of contact. Nobody has ever come for it. I wouldn’t be overly upset if they did, as I don’t have any use for it, but I’ve never felt like proactively giving it up either.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    i feel like this is the prime example of why only around 200mio ipv4 addresses are seen on the internet (out of the possible 4b) http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3194.html http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3194.html
throw0101a 5y ago
> Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. You can lease addresses: * https://circleid.com/posts/20210608-leasing-vs-buying-ipv4-addresses https://circleid.com/posts/20210608-leasing-vs-buying-ipv4-a... The addresses get allocated to Company A which then turns around and allows Company B to use them for a monthly fee and they become routable/pingable. If someone doesn't have enough in their CapEx budget to buy a block then they can put it into their OpEx.
- ozim 5y ago
  But complexity of this investment is still far away from "buy and hold" so cryptobros won't jump on that train.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Still sinpler than credit default swaps, and CDOs, and options on commodities, and we have so many people investing in them without understanding
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    Perhaps someone can create an IPv4 ETF. :)
phil21 5y ago
> Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. No longer true, depending on the RIR and their exact policies. At least RIPE and ARIN see leasing blocks as proper usage. The only thing you might run into a snag with would be if you had zero customers leasing blocks within the region the RIR is responsible for. For example, if you have a /19 assigned to ARIN right now and want to lease it to a European entity announcing it from Europe, you might need to transfer it to RIPE so the proper party gets paid membership dues. It's certainly more hands on than holding equities (or crypto), much like renting out a few apartments is more effort than simply holding an REIT. Quite doable for anyone with an ISP/infrastructure background and capital to put into acquiring ipv4 blocks. It's actually much easier then renting out real estate (I do both), as it's mostly just jumping on tickets that need you to click a couple buttons every so often. If you find some stable/large lessees, it's more or less set it and forget it for N number of years. I'm not sure I'd advise people to jump into this market when IPv4 is hitting $50 per address, but I've also thought the "top" was in years ago so what do I know :) I've pondered for a few years now somehow offering "IPv4 investors" fractional ownership of an LLC stood up to lease out address blocks - I just never had the time to get through the legal/tax complexity of having 50-100 partners all pooling capital. Banks are surprisingly willing to finance these acquisitions as well, assuming you have an industry track record.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  > I'm not sure I'd advise people to jump into this market when IPv4 is hitting $50 per address, but I've also thought the "top" was in years ago so what do I know :) You and me both. I sold half my IPv4 holding at $20 (having bought in at $8), and am both annoyed and glad that I only did half, since I can now afford to sell the remaining 25% at a high premium, and maintain my remaining /24 and ASN as a vanity project for many decades.
kloch 5y ago
I'm not speaking for ARIN but their CEO John Curran told me ARIN has never revoked address resources for any reason other than non-payment or fraud. As long as your original application for the resources was made in good faith and you continued to pay the registration fees, they would not take them away even if you are not using them anymore. This seems logical for functional IPv4 markets where the non-use/non-need is explicit in any resource being offered for sale. The registered organization does still need to be "in business" (registered in good standing with the state corporation commission or equivalent). If the entity is dissolved then the resources automatically revert back to ARIN and it may be difficult or impossible to sell to a third party. It is important to keep ARIN updated with any organization name changes, reorganization, or M&A actions as they happen. Going back 10+ years to update those changes, especially if there are several, can be extremely difficult. In large companies the network folks that manage ARIN resources are often not even be aware of those changes until they interact with ARIN again. That has bitten me several times in my career. In the old days before IPv4 runout they could and would refuse to issue additional IP blocks if you did not show sufficient utilization of your most recent allocation. It was also not unusual for them to reduce the allocation size requested based on how fast you had utilized your most recent block.
- wmf 5y ago
  Hoarding IP addresses probably is fraud because to get IPs you have to swear that they will be put into use within a year (IIRC). I don't consider IP leasing to be hoarding because the IPs are in use.
oarsinsync 5y ago
> Unfortunately you cannot simply HODL IPv4 because authorities can come over and take you blocks back if they are not used. Define "not used". I know several LIRs that have in excess of /20s allocated to them, and do not advertise their ranges to the (Internet) DFZ, but instead use them on private interlinks between themselves and other third parties. The only requirement to be given address space by an RIR is a requirement for global uniqueness. Just because you don't see it on the Internet (or any other network you use), doesn't mean it's not in use. IPv4 is knocking on death's door, and the value will drop once the DoD gives (6 years) notice that they've migrated all their services to IPv6, thus making 10? /8s available for sale and: 1. flooding the market 2. proving that there's nothing left holding back to run an ipv6-only network, resulting in wide scale migrations for networks that haven't migrated yet.