4 ms·

The staff didn't. They called the police. It doesn't matter how poorly the decision was made, but once decided to remove a passenger than that passenger needs t

The staff didn't. They called the police. It doesn't matter how poorly the decision was made, but once decided to remove a passenger than that passenger needs to comply or be removed. It's no different than you deciding that you no longer want a guest in your house (for whatever reason) and calling the police when they refuse to leave.

ttybird2 5y ago
It was not the police that removed him. "but once decided to remove a passenger than that passenger needs to comply or be removed" I do not get this type of argument at all. "once decided to take the victim's money then the victim needs to either comply or have the money physically removed from their possession" uses the same logic.
- manigandham 5y ago
  You don't see the difference between lawful contracts, rights, authorities... and criminals?
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    You seem to be assuming that what the airline did was lawful and what he did was unlawful. There is plenty of evidence that shows that this was not the case. Regardless though, something being lawful or unlawful does not imply that it is also moral or immoral. What is an authority for someone is a criminal for another (see certain regimes). Regardless, I am sure that we can agree that the airline is not an authority under the law. Anyway, you have made 25 flamewar comments in this thread. Posters that do that are usually banned so I would advice you to stop. (just a friendly advice)
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      Generally, I think a plane, bus, or hotel are private property, like your house. Regardless of existing business arrangements, you should be able to deny service and ask patrons to leave your property at any time for any reason. Failure to comply with such a request is trespassing, and justifies forced removal. This action may well be a breach of contract, and that matter should be resolved in civil court, but that doesn't mean a business shouldn't be entitled to take it.
      - ratww 5y ago
        > you should be able to deny service and ask patrons to leave your property at any time for any reason Nope, not "at any time" or for "any reason". Air companies are subject to several regulations, and another person posted it here: after boarding there are pretty specific reasons for why you can expel someone, and "because I say so" is not one. Not to mention that planes fly so you obviously can't "surprise deny" service at "any time". At hotels you also can't throw people out on the street in the middle of the night, unless they did something wrong. Which is clearly not the case. You also cannot throw out tenants without reason and without proper proceedings, for example.
      - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
        Airlines are granted licenses to use of public property (airport gates and airspace itself). Therefore their allowable actions should be limited to those in the public interest.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      It was lawful. The case is already resolved and it was the degree of force and how it was used that became the problem. Morality was never part of this discussion. > "What is an authority for someone is a criminal for another (see certain regimes)" What does this have to do with air travel? This person isn't fighting tyranny, they're being asked to leave a plane. The authority is the same for everyone that participates in that state, airport and aircraft. > "the airline is not an authority under the law" No, but it can call authorities just like you can call the police when required. Also airports and aircraft do operate under different rules for security. > "you have made 25 flamewar comments in this thread" My comments are not "flamewar" because you disagree with them. I've always posted civilly in the face of very harsh and rude replies and will continue the discussion as long as I want. I advise you leave the moderation to the admins here.
zenmaster10665 5y ago
Again... People seem to be making their own rules for a stitation that the DOT already calls out >Generally, no. If you have met the following conditions, airlines are not allowed to deny you permission to board, or remove you from the flight if you have already boarded the flight: You have checked-in for your flight before the check-in deadline set by the airlines; and A gate agent has accepted your paper boarding pass or electronically scanned your boarding pass and let you know that you may proceed to board https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/bumping-oversales https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...
- manigandham 5y ago
  These rules were changed after this incident: > "On January 13, 2021, the United States Department of Transportation amended its rules, forbidding involuntarily bumping from an overbooked flight after boarding starting on April 21."

ttybird2 5y ago

It was not the police that removed him. "but once decided to remove a passenger than that passenger needs to comply or be removed" I do not get this type of argument at all. "once decided to take the victim's money then the victim needs to either comply or have the money physically removed from their possession" uses the same logic.

manigandham 5y ago
You don't see the difference between lawful contracts, rights, authorities... and criminals?
- ttybird2 5y ago
  You seem to be assuming that what the airline did was lawful and what he did was unlawful. There is plenty of evidence that shows that this was not the case. Regardless though, something being lawful or unlawful does not imply that it is also moral or immoral. What is an authority for someone is a criminal for another (see certain regimes). Regardless, I am sure that we can agree that the airline is not an authority under the law. Anyway, you have made 25 flamewar comments in this thread. Posters that do that are usually banned so I would advice you to stop. (just a friendly advice)
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    Generally, I think a plane, bus, or hotel are private property, like your house. Regardless of existing business arrangements, you should be able to deny service and ask patrons to leave your property at any time for any reason. Failure to comply with such a request is trespassing, and justifies forced removal. This action may well be a breach of contract, and that matter should be resolved in civil court, but that doesn't mean a business shouldn't be entitled to take it.
    - ratww 5y ago
      > you should be able to deny service and ask patrons to leave your property at any time for any reason Nope, not "at any time" or for "any reason". Air companies are subject to several regulations, and another person posted it here: after boarding there are pretty specific reasons for why you can expel someone, and "because I say so" is not one. Not to mention that planes fly so you obviously can't "surprise deny" service at "any time". At hotels you also can't throw people out on the street in the middle of the night, unless they did something wrong. Which is clearly not the case. You also cannot throw out tenants without reason and without proper proceedings, for example.
    - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
      Airlines are granted licenses to use of public property (airport gates and airspace itself). Therefore their allowable actions should be limited to those in the public interest.
  - manigandham 5y ago
    It was lawful. The case is already resolved and it was the degree of force and how it was used that became the problem. Morality was never part of this discussion. > "What is an authority for someone is a criminal for another (see certain regimes)" What does this have to do with air travel? This person isn't fighting tyranny, they're being asked to leave a plane. The authority is the same for everyone that participates in that state, airport and aircraft. > "the airline is not an authority under the law" No, but it can call authorities just like you can call the police when required. Also airports and aircraft do operate under different rules for security. > "you have made 25 flamewar comments in this thread" My comments are not "flamewar" because you disagree with them. I've always posted civilly in the face of very harsh and rude replies and will continue the discussion as long as I want. I advise you leave the moderation to the admins here.

zenmaster10665 5y ago

Again... People seem to be making their own rules for a stitation that the DOT already calls out >Generally, no. If you have met the following conditions, airlines are not allowed to deny you permission to board, or remove you from the flight if you have already boarded the flight: You have checked-in for your flight before the check-in deadline set by the airlines; and A gate agent has accepted your paper boarding pass or electronically scanned your boarding pass and let you know that you may proceed to board https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/bumping-oversales https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...

manigandham 5y ago
These rules were changed after this incident: > "On January 13, 2021, the United States Department of Transportation amended its rules, forbidding involuntarily bumping from an overbooked flight after boarding starting on April 21."