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That's not unruly though. You can be refused service and if you don't follow instructions then eventually you'll be removed by force. What else would you expect
by manigandham 5y ago
That's not unruly though. You can be refused service and if you don't follow instructions then eventually you'll be removed by force. What else would you expect them to do?
- pcbro141 5y agoStop defrauding customers by selling them seats that don't exist. Let paying customers occupy the seats they paid for.
- 4oh9do 5y ago> What else would you expect them to do? How about...to not physically attack a paying customer who had done nothing wrong (and had medical patients to see, to boot) so that a bunch of airline staff could fly for free?
- manigandham 5y agoWhatever the reason for the request, once it's issued you do need to follow it. Your personal appointments aren't relevant and don't grant you rights to remain on the plane.
- 4oh9do 5y agoWhy stop at just savagely beating the man then? Stands to reason he should be locked up indefinitely in an ASO holding cell so that he can't cause any more trouble at a later time, yeah? That'll cost a lot of money though, why not just a bullet in his head?
- manigandham 5y agoHis injuries are unfortunate but it's bound to happen when force is applied. This is a highly regulated and security sensitive mode of transport so there's even less leeway in case of someone refusing to move. Once he's off the plane, then the issue is resolved. Why would they lock him up after that? What's with the extremes and what does it have to do with any of this?
- jdminhbg 5y ago> His injuries are unfortunate Maybe reconsider when you have to start the post this way.
- manigandham 5y agoReconsider what? Follow the rules and orders given. If you don't then force will be applied. When force is applied, injuries may be sustained. What is this strange refusal to accept consequences? You are responsible for your actions.
- sieabahlpark 5y agoJust get on the train sir.
- jdminhbg 5y agoReconsider whether your mindless deference to authority has any limiting principle. If someone sells lemonade on the street without a license, should force be applied and injuries sustained? What is this strange refusal to accept consequences?
- toomuchtodo 5y agoNot your plane, not your rules. Comply with the authority or get off the flight. You’re projecting rights that don’t exist in the situation.
- msrenee 5y agoWas he beaten? The video clip I saw didn't really leave time for that.
- alasdair_ 5y ago> Whatever the reason for the request, once it's issued you do need to follow it It is categorically NOT a “request” if you “do need to follow it”
- missedthecue 5y agoI don't think that changes his point
- nikitaga 5y agoRight, it doesn't, if their point was to doublespeak "why didn't he just comply".
- manigandham 5y agoSure, it's not a "request". You don't need to follow it. Then it gets escalated from a civil contract matter to private property and state security matter, at which point you'll start getting orders.
- soraminazuki 5y ago"Whatever the reason for the request" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here because that reason refers to United charging money for seats that they had no intention to sell. That is fraud. What the victim actually got instead of a seat was severe beatings, a broken nose, and lost teeth.
- manigandham 5y agoFine, however that does not entitle you to remain on the aircraft against all orders. Get off and deal with the issue separately without creating a new incident. Being in the right (if that is the case) does not mean you can behave however you want. If a hotel denies your booking for whatever reason, would you just stay in the lobby anyway?
- FredPret 5y agoWho the hell has the authority to issue “orders” to a civilian? What is this, medieval Europe? To make it worse, he paid to be there. If they didn’t want him in the seat, they shouldn’t have sold him a ticket. He already paid, already received the ticket, and already had his ass in the seat.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- manigandham 5y agoAirport security and the police are explicitly granted with that authority and can issue those orders. Why would you call this medieval?
- Bud 5y agoYou seem deeply confused. A lot of people have the right to issue orders to a civilian under various circumstances.
- hattori_hanzo 5y ago
- 908B64B197 5y ago
- ratww 5y agoAll this happened because they were trying to avoid a mild inconvenience for the airline staff. Whatever rights an airline has in this specific situation, it does not entitle or justify that they inflict any violence on others. Even if this violence is done by airline staff, airport security or even the police, it's still not justified. Instead of picking on specific passengers and escalating it to violence, they should have kept asking other people. Maybe even give up boarding four staff. Even giving up would still be a mild inconvenience. Violence should never be a way to solve mild inconveniences. The airline was completely in the wrong for allowing it to escalate, even if law allows them to do it.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoThe plane is private property if the company tells you to get off, you have to get off and settle it in court later, there is nothing else you can reasonably do. I do hope he got a nice settlement out of the overreaction, though. However, if you're in my house, my private residence, and I tell you to GTFO out then you have to comply, it's the law, just like on the planes.
- FredPret 5y agoI don’t think it’s that simple though. Airlines are almost a public conveyance; they sold him a ticket and he would have gone to some lengths based on that reasonable expectation. People coming to your house don’t have that expectation.
- threeseed 5y agoIt is that simple. You do not have the right to fly on a private service. Especially if you have wilfully ignored the terms of service and caused disruption to other passengers.
- 4oh9do 5y ago> and caused disruption to other passengers. That is precisely what United did.
- mackmgg 5y agoActually, you do have a right to fly on a private service once they've let you board. This wasn't the case yet in 2017, but the TICKETS Act clearly states: > if the gate agent accepts a passenger for boarding after collecting or scanning the passenger’s boarding pass, the carrier is prohibited from removing the passenger from the flight thereafter.
- FredPret 5y agoYou most definitely do have the right to fly on a private service... if they voluntarily offered you a ticket, you accepted the offer, paid them, and were even allowed aboard to boot. If United rented out their house to two tenants, they can't just drag one of them out by the ears? It's on them for being two-timing fraudsters.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y agoIf I was Dr. Dao, I would have been pissed as hell. But I also would have gotten off the plane. Because this HAS happened to me before - previous flight was cancelled, then got on standby on the next flight, there was a no show, so I was sitting in my seat for at least 5 minutes before the no show showed up and they made me get off the plane. The Dr. refused a lawful (if highly fucking annoying) request, and then when they tried to force ably remove him, he started screaming. He was not "beaten" or "physically attacked".
- 4oh9do 5y ago> He was not "beaten" or "physically attacked". > Dao was taken to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries including a broken nose, loss of two front teeth, sinus injuries and "a significant concussion" What phrasing would you prefer be used instead to describe the sustaining of said injuries?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dylan604 5y ago>"physically attacked". So I guess his injuries were self-inflicted? How does one sustain injuries if not physcially attacked? If someone places their hands on another, that's assault which according to dictionaries means physical attack.
- sk5t 5y agoA "lawful [...] request" can be denied. Otherwise it's not a request.
- irrational 5y agoThe request was not lawful according to the rules. You shouldn’t have gotten off. Once you are in the seat you have a right to stay there, according to the department of transportation. You got taken advantage of. https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/bumping-oversales https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...
- kelnos 5y ago> and had medical patients to see, to boot What does that have to do with it? We all have important reasons we just absolutely have to be on that particular flight, but we're not entitled to be there. I would have been incredibly annoyed had I been in his position... but I would have sucked it up and gotten off the plane, not acted like an entitled child, clinging to my seat. Should he have been hurt the way he was? No, of course not. But, c'mon, it's ridiculous to suggest that he wasn't in the wrong at all here. He was given a lawful order to vacate the plane, and refused. That's not "had done nothing wrong". Quite the opposite.
- greenbcj 5y ago“airline staff could fly for free” It’s not that simple. This was a crew being sent to operate another plane. If they can’t move the crew, that could potentially cancel several other flights, and affect hundreds of other passengers.
- diob 5y agoOkay, clarify what you would say crosses into unruly then?
- mitchdoogle 5y agoSurely they could've offered increasingly higher vouchers to someone willing to volunteer their seat rather than force someone off after they've already seated?
- ummonk 5y agoYes, that's what Delta does actually. They're known for raising the offer to thousands if necessary to make sure they can find people who will voluntarily take the next flight.
- pininja 5y agoYeah, this is what Alaska has done on my flights. It’s great for everyone, even the airline - here I am advertising them.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dotnet00 5y agoYou think it's ethical for a company to sell everyone seats, allow them to arrange plans around the seat's availability, let them get all the way to being in the plane and then drag them out of the plane just to seat staff?
- manigandham 5y agoThat wasn't the topic. I don't know or care enough about the reason for asking him to vacate his seat, but that is still a request that must be followed.
- FredPret 5y agoWhat utter non-logic
- qaq 5y agoGiven the multi-million dollar settlement I am guessing things might not be as simple
- hn_throwaway_99 5y agoPeople can sue for whatever they want, and settlements from large juries are always a risk assessment, not an admission of wrongdoing.
- qaq 5y agoA language that puts some conditions in some contract does not mean it can not be successfully challenged in court.
- opo 5y ago>...not an admission of wrongdoing. The admission of wrongdoing came from the CEO: >...Two days after the incident, Munoz issued an additional statement, apologizing and promising that such an incident would never again occur on a United aircraft. He said, "No one should ever be mistreated this way." In an ABC television interview, Munoz was asked, "Do you think [Dao] was at fault in any way?" Munoz responded, "No. He can't be. He was a paying passenger sitting on our seat in our aircraft." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Express_Flight_3411_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Express_Flight_3411_inc...
- poulsbohemian 5y agoDuuuuude. I suggest you go back and read the story of what happened here if you are unfamiliar with the story. United was way out of line. I was a top Premier status flyer in a past career, now I won’t fly United because of how they treated that man.
- zapdrive 5y agoNice try, United Airlines. How about not over booking flights, especially since all seats are pre paid?
- divbzero 5y agoI disagree with the parent comment. It contains a thread of logic that appears to hold at first glance, but actual social dynamics are more complex and you ought to consider the full context before applying strict logic. The detailed description of the incident (Wikipedia link from GP) suggests that the airline mishandled the situation from the start: > Several passengers stated that the situation escalated quickly and was inflamed by the demeanor of a United employee. According to passenger Tyler Bridges, "An airline supervisor walked onto the plane and brusquely announced, 'We have United employees that need to fly to Louisville tonight. ... This flight's not leaving until four people get off.' That rubbed some people the wrong way." Passenger John Fuller described the employee's behavior and said, "She was very terse. ... She said, 'Four people need to get off this plane, or we're not going anywhere.'” Passenger Jason Powell corroborated this account and said that he did not understand why the employee had spoken with such a belligerent tone: "The tone immediately turned me off ... She accelerated the situation. It was poor leadership." No one on the plane accepted the initial offer of $400 in travel vouchers to take the next available flight, nor the follow-up offer of $800 in travel vouchers.
- tempestn 5y agoIf it was that important to them, they should increase the offer until someone is willing to take it. I guarantee people on the plane have a price at which they'll agree to take the next flight. But yeah, asking nicely does help too.
- WesternWind 5y agoThey could have offered money instead of vouchers too.
- daniel-cussen 5y agoYeah those vouchers sound shitty as hell. Terms and conditions may apply. Basically monopoly money, $800 in monopoly money, they want to be able to say they offered $800, dollar-sign-eight-zero-zero, they want to put that in their response to why they were right and the passenger was wrong. But I wouldn't eg buy 800 dollars worth of travel vouchers in order to use those travel vouchers to buy a ticket.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ttybird2 5y agoSomeone can demand your money at the street and if you don't follow instructions then eventually your money will be removed by force. What else would you expect them to do?
- manigandham 5y agoAsk a guest to leave your private property? Lawful. Force someone to leave their own property? Unlawful.
- ww520 5y agoIllegal to force a paying tenant out.