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> What people want is to stop being forced to pay Apple’s 15-30%. Just to be clear developers care about this, not “people”. Vast majority of iPhone users coul

> What people want is to stop being forced to pay Apple’s 15-30%. Just to be clear developers care about this, not “people”. Vast majority of iPhone users couldn’t care less. Wanna know why? Because the developers have to compete on price and Apple is cutting into their margins. This is Apple vs app developers through and through. If Apple stopped taking a cut there would be no price changes. Developers would just make better margin. Since Apple provides me with a great experience and developers tend to mostly be bad or mediocre, I’ll stick with Apple thank you. > What they should do is force Apple to allow competing stores. No thanks. I like that my grandma who uses Facebook has Apple making sure (within bounds) that they aren’t doing shady stuff, and that they have to state what they use data for and confirm permissions routinely. > We don’t have to wonder what a platform with a competing sources for software looks like. We have a bunch of them, and they seem to work well. If it’s the best model you don’t need government intervention because it’ll just win out. If Apple’s “monopoly” on the App Store is that bad people will buy other phones. But the truth is it’s a great model and users love it, which is why Apple crushes sales quarter after quarter. This reminds me of someone recently defending Google doing something on behalf of users. Developers thinking they know what their users want “opt them in to this great feature they previously opted out of” so they can discover it. Same stuff different tune. It’s all business and just rich corporations attacking other rich corporations with no benefit, except that I lose benefits when Apple isn’t in charge.

Lucasoato 5y ago
> I like that my grandma who uses Facebook has Apple making sure (within bounds) that they aren’t doing shady stuff The problem is that it has been proven that Apple used its store in a monopolistic way, lying to developers, stealing ideas for its own native apps, ruining developers' life. This is much more than just an economic problem, you can't trade dark patterns for presumed governance and security.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Based on my experience I say give them even more control. I don’t care if they have a monopoly nor do I think they “have a monopoly” anymore than any other store or marketplace.
  - commoner 5y ago
    You and anyone else can continue to purchase or install apps exclusively through the App Store, even if Apple's App Store is not the only way to get apps on iOS. People who prefer to purchase or install iOS apps through other means are the ones harmed by Apple's anti-competitive restrictions, and that is why countries around the world are gradually introducing new regulations that curb Apple's ability to limit consumer choice.
    - ericmay 5y ago
      Who is this anti-competitive for? If Apple cedes control over the App Store I lose all of the benefits. Who will implement anonymous Sign In with Apple when you can just, create an alternative App Store and bypass this? No more Apple Pay. No more privacy fact sheets and enforcements. You name it. Apple collectively bargains on behalf of users against predatory developers. I honestly cannot comprehend why people can’t just buy an Android phone if they want the Amazon Prime App Store or the Meta App Store of whatever. Leave us alone. We like the iPhone this way. I’d rather developers stop writing new software than to give up these controls. If apple is this big bad monopoly or whatever seriously just don’t buy their products. When you go to buy your next phone say “I want multiple app stores. Therefore iPhone is not the device for me” and then just buy the Android phone that supports the features you want. Only having one App Store is the feature I want, which is why I buy the iPhone. If this feature is a big deal to customers than they will start buying other products and then apple may have to change how it does things. But we both know that won’t happen because Apple’s way is the superior model. There’s just a minority of developers who complain loudly and then other mega corps who want to increase their margins. Again. There’s absolutely 0, and I mean 0 benefit to me as a customer to change this, and instead I lose lots of benefits that I enjoy.
      - commoner 5y ago
        Apple's restrictions are anti-competitive for all iOS users, and have a negative effect on iOS users who have different preferences than you. You don't speak for all iOS users, and it is not your place to demand iOS users who want to obtain iOS apps from alternative app stores to go out of their way and switch ecosystems to satisfy your preferences, if a more convenient option is available for them to obtain what they want. Allowing alternative app stores does not prevent Apple from setting arbitrary fees and restrictions (like Apple Pay and Apple sign-in) on apps published through Apple's App Store. You are still free to exclusively use Apple's App Store, regardless of where other iOS users choose to get their apps from if Apple's anti-competitive restrictions on iOS app installation were removed.
Salgat 5y ago
I always laugh when people talk about how the Apple way is the only safe way when Android has been doing this for years while also supporting alternate stores/sideloading. Your grandma is going to use the App Store regardless of whether alternate app stores exist, there's no concern here for that.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Then why can’t people just buy an Android phone and be done with it? Why does the iPhone have to be like Android? Clearly there are alternatives to Apple’s tech stack here so just… use them?
  - Salgat 5y ago
    It's not about having to be like Android, we're talking about Apple abusing its high market share. With a 50% market share in the U.S., most app developers have no choice but to do whatever Apple demands or lose half their business, and antitrust laws start to come into play when this happens. Apple is abusing its market share to force people to use only the Apple store, which if you remember is very similar to what Microsoft did with Windows and their browser.
    - ericmay 5y ago
      Antitrust law does not come into play simply because of market share. > Apple is abusing its market share to force people to use only the Apple store This is not an abuse for customers though. Having a single App Store allows Apple to collectively bargain on behalf of users against developers. It allows Apple to introduce things like privacy scorecards, sign-on-with-Apple as a privacy friendly alternative, and the use of Apple Pay integrated across apps. > is very similar to what Microsoft did with Windows and their browser Don't think it's similar enough to draw a comparison.
walterbell 5y ago
> Just to be clear developers care about this, not “people”. People want software for their underutilized M1-powered Apple hardware investment. Software requires — developers with a sustainable business. When people invest years of data entry and muscle memory in software for their Apple device, their investment can be lost if the developer goes out of business due to excessive fees imposed by Apple.
jmull 5y ago
And yet, people’s grandmas somehow do fine on their non-iOS platforms. I don’t know why it’s OK for Apple to protect us from ourselves, but not for regulations to protect us from Apple. BTW, I think Apple’s model is good and people (users and dev) are widely satisfied with it — you said “great” and “love”… I wouldn’t go that far, but we’re on the same page. So if there were a choice of stores, a great many would be unaffected, probably including your grandma.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Ok. Then why is there an issue? Just buy a different phone. Everybody gets what they want.

Lucasoato 5y ago

> I like that my grandma who uses Facebook has Apple making sure (within bounds) that they aren’t doing shady stuff The problem is that it has been proven that Apple used its store in a monopolistic way, lying to developers, stealing ideas for its own native apps, ruining developers' life. This is much more than just an economic problem, you can't trade dark patterns for presumed governance and security.

ericmay 5y ago
Based on my experience I say give them even more control. I don’t care if they have a monopoly nor do I think they “have a monopoly” anymore than any other store or marketplace.
- commoner 5y ago
  You and anyone else can continue to purchase or install apps exclusively through the App Store, even if Apple's App Store is not the only way to get apps on iOS. People who prefer to purchase or install iOS apps through other means are the ones harmed by Apple's anti-competitive restrictions, and that is why countries around the world are gradually introducing new regulations that curb Apple's ability to limit consumer choice.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Who is this anti-competitive for? If Apple cedes control over the App Store I lose all of the benefits. Who will implement anonymous Sign In with Apple when you can just, create an alternative App Store and bypass this? No more Apple Pay. No more privacy fact sheets and enforcements. You name it. Apple collectively bargains on behalf of users against predatory developers. I honestly cannot comprehend why people can’t just buy an Android phone if they want the Amazon Prime App Store or the Meta App Store of whatever. Leave us alone. We like the iPhone this way. I’d rather developers stop writing new software than to give up these controls. If apple is this big bad monopoly or whatever seriously just don’t buy their products. When you go to buy your next phone say “I want multiple app stores. Therefore iPhone is not the device for me” and then just buy the Android phone that supports the features you want. Only having one App Store is the feature I want, which is why I buy the iPhone. If this feature is a big deal to customers than they will start buying other products and then apple may have to change how it does things. But we both know that won’t happen because Apple’s way is the superior model. There’s just a minority of developers who complain loudly and then other mega corps who want to increase their margins. Again. There’s absolutely 0, and I mean 0 benefit to me as a customer to change this, and instead I lose lots of benefits that I enjoy.
    - commoner 5y ago
      Apple's restrictions are anti-competitive for all iOS users, and have a negative effect on iOS users who have different preferences than you. You don't speak for all iOS users, and it is not your place to demand iOS users who want to obtain iOS apps from alternative app stores to go out of their way and switch ecosystems to satisfy your preferences, if a more convenient option is available for them to obtain what they want. Allowing alternative app stores does not prevent Apple from setting arbitrary fees and restrictions (like Apple Pay and Apple sign-in) on apps published through Apple's App Store. You are still free to exclusively use Apple's App Store, regardless of where other iOS users choose to get their apps from if Apple's anti-competitive restrictions on iOS app installation were removed.

Salgat 5y ago

I always laugh when people talk about how the Apple way is the only safe way when Android has been doing this for years while also supporting alternate stores/sideloading. Your grandma is going to use the App Store regardless of whether alternate app stores exist, there's no concern here for that.

ericmay 5y ago
Then why can’t people just buy an Android phone and be done with it? Why does the iPhone have to be like Android? Clearly there are alternatives to Apple’s tech stack here so just… use them?
- Salgat 5y ago
  It's not about having to be like Android, we're talking about Apple abusing its high market share. With a 50% market share in the U.S., most app developers have no choice but to do whatever Apple demands or lose half their business, and antitrust laws start to come into play when this happens. Apple is abusing its market share to force people to use only the Apple store, which if you remember is very similar to what Microsoft did with Windows and their browser.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Antitrust law does not come into play simply because of market share. > Apple is abusing its market share to force people to use only the Apple store This is not an abuse for customers though. Having a single App Store allows Apple to collectively bargain on behalf of users against developers. It allows Apple to introduce things like privacy scorecards, sign-on-with-Apple as a privacy friendly alternative, and the use of Apple Pay integrated across apps. > is very similar to what Microsoft did with Windows and their browser Don't think it's similar enough to draw a comparison.

walterbell 5y ago

> Just to be clear developers care about this, not “people”. People want software for their underutilized M1-powered Apple hardware investment. Software requires — developers with a sustainable business. When people invest years of data entry and muscle memory in software for their Apple device, their investment can be lost if the developer goes out of business due to excessive fees imposed by Apple.

jmull 5y ago

And yet, people’s grandmas somehow do fine on their non-iOS platforms. I don’t know why it’s OK for Apple to protect us from ourselves, but not for regulations to protect us from Apple. BTW, I think Apple’s model is good and people (users and dev) are widely satisfied with it — you said “great” and “love”… I wouldn’t go that far, but we’re on the same page. So if there were a choice of stores, a great many would be unaffected, probably including your grandma.

ericmay 5y ago
Ok. Then why is there an issue? Just buy a different phone. Everybody gets what they want.