4 ms·

Not to defend Windows here, because it certainly has its flaws, but you're so deluded it's not even funny any more. You seem to like 'openness' so much, but the

by roel_v 15y ago

Not to defend Windows here, because it certainly has its flaws, but you're so deluded it's not even funny any more. You seem to like 'openness' so much, but the concept of 'open mind' seems to be completely lost on you. "There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatically." This alone is enough to discard anything you say about this topic. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Everything in Windows is programmable, through a standard object model, and the facilities to put them into any program are standardized, too. "Which is not easily possible with windows, heck using those tools on windows is big pain." Windows != Unix. If you are a bricklayer and you get into gardening, would you complain that your concrete mixer doesn't work well for shoveling a garden? Unix tools on Windows is a crutch for people who refuse to adjust to the environment they're in (or as a band aid for a quick and dirty port of Unix functionality). "tools like DBus. Sockets et al are vastly superior in UNIX than windows." Windows != Unix. The concurrent tasks model in Windows is based on threads, not process spawning. Don't take your Unix prejudices to Windows when you write software for Windows. Are you seriously suggesting there are no working ipc mechanisms in Windows? There are vast amounts of functionality to do so, and on a much deeper level than just 'pipe text from one process to the next' (i.e., a proper object model that can be used to share code written in several languages and with which you can pass objects and not just text). "Lack of multiuser login," WTF are you talking about? Have you ever seen a Windows box since Windows 95? "Registry is a pain on Windows, I don't have to worry about those hassles on UNIX." What? Are you saying you prefer 25 different file formats, spread out in non-standard ways, without a standardized layout? Or are you saying that editing Apache config files with sed and awk is a good idea? If so, you're clearly off your rockers. Of course you can hack together something that 'mostly works', but at least with the registry you have a standard format, standardized and cross-language APIs and a (more or less) standard organization of data. Now I'm not defending the implementation of the registry; it has outlived its design. But being against the idea is lunacy - why do you think the Gnome guys realized in the early 2000's that they needed something similar?

jrockway 15y ago
Here's the thing about the registry: with a bunch of config files in /etc, I already have many, many tools for managing them because they're just text files like every other text file. With the Windows registry, if I want version control or something like that, I have to invent the tools myself. This is a waste of my time unless I am in the business of selling products for Windows. UNIX is about being generic. Yes, it means Apache and Varnish have different config file formats. But it also means that I already have the tools I need to automate my configuration so I don't have to care. (Yes, Windows is programmable. But when you start having to compile software to automate your deployment, it becomes engineering and becomes a task of its own. Compare this to a quick command-line oneliner, and you'll see why people prefer UNIX. Engineering is about knowing how much you need to get something accomplished. Sometimes you do need to write highly-advanced configuration software. But other times, you don't. Windows doesn't give you that choice.)
- roel_v 15y ago
  Re: versioning, you can dump the registry in text format with regedit /e and save it to a text file. It's true that you can't keep an svn directory with config files like in Unix, you can still get the same with a few batch scripts that call svn update/regedit. However, more importantly, you hardly ever need to because you can do most of your server management centrally so that you never have to manually work with the registry. Secondly, it's only true in the most simple cases that you can edit config files easily. First, all config formats are different - from the bizarre (Sendmail) to fairly sensible (Apache), but each one requires separate tools/scripts. Secondly, most of them are quite hard to automate - for example most config formats ignore white space, but writing a robust 'parser' in bash/sed/awk is a major pita and something you can never quite get right. (this is what I alluded to in my previous post). I don't see how you can say 'I already have most of the tools' - you need to learn the syntax and then write a complete program to parse the files. For example, you need somewhat of a state machine to parse/edit Apache VirtualHost directives. You need to write a complete editor from scratch each time. I'm not sure what you mean with the last line. Just as with a properly set up make environment, you can compile a whole Visual Studio project with a single command from the command line. There is no way to do a bunch of things 'automatically' on Linux either (compile, run test, deploy, whatever), you still need to code them into your makefiles/deployment scripts. (I've written software on and admin'ed Linux for coming on 15 years and I've written Windows software for over 10 - I have quite a bit of experience with both. They both have good and bad sides, and I run my personal servers on Linux myself. That said, the arguments used here against Windows are plain false and reek of Slashdot-style fanboyism).
kamaal 15y ago
WTF are you talking about? Have you ever seen a Windows box since Windows 95? Why is it so difficult for people to make a point without making personal remarks?
- jholman 15y ago
  Speaking as someone who refuses good money when it involves working on Windows, because no one's offering me enough money for that level of pain... Seriously, if you claim that a drawback of Windows is that it doesn't allow multi-user login, then it's hard not to ask "WTF are you talking about? Really, what are you talking about? Are you stuck in some circa-1995 reference frame? That doesn't even make sense!" So I'm not sure that it was a personal remark. It may have just been honest lack of comprehension.
- roel_v 15y ago
  There is a distinction between 'ad hominem' and 'refuting an opponent's ethos'. Somebody made a factual claim about something, therefore implying some form of at least familiarity with the subject at hand. When his arguments show the he lacks even the most basic of such familiarity, then calling that out is not an ad hominem.

by roel_v 15y ago

jrockway 15y ago

Here's the thing about the registry: with a bunch of config files in /etc, I already have many, many tools for managing them because they're just text files like every other text file. With the Windows registry, if I want version control or something like that, I have to invent the tools myself. This is a waste of my time unless I am in the business of selling products for Windows. UNIX is about being generic. Yes, it means Apache and Varnish have different config file formats. But it also means that I already have the tools I need to automate my configuration so I don't have to care. (Yes, Windows is programmable. But when you start having to compile software to automate your deployment, it becomes engineering and becomes a task of its own. Compare this to a quick command-line oneliner, and you'll see why people prefer UNIX. Engineering is about knowing how much you need to get something accomplished. Sometimes you do need to write highly-advanced configuration software. But other times, you don't. Windows doesn't give you that choice.)

roel_v 15y ago
Re: versioning, you can dump the registry in text format with regedit /e and save it to a text file. It's true that you can't keep an svn directory with config files like in Unix, you can still get the same with a few batch scripts that call svn update/regedit. However, more importantly, you hardly ever need to because you can do most of your server management centrally so that you never have to manually work with the registry. Secondly, it's only true in the most simple cases that you can edit config files easily. First, all config formats are different - from the bizarre (Sendmail) to fairly sensible (Apache), but each one requires separate tools/scripts. Secondly, most of them are quite hard to automate - for example most config formats ignore white space, but writing a robust 'parser' in bash/sed/awk is a major pita and something you can never quite get right. (this is what I alluded to in my previous post). I don't see how you can say 'I already have most of the tools' - you need to learn the syntax and then write a complete program to parse the files. For example, you need somewhat of a state machine to parse/edit Apache VirtualHost directives. You need to write a complete editor from scratch each time. I'm not sure what you mean with the last line. Just as with a properly set up make environment, you can compile a whole Visual Studio project with a single command from the command line. There is no way to do a bunch of things 'automatically' on Linux either (compile, run test, deploy, whatever), you still need to code them into your makefiles/deployment scripts. (I've written software on and admin'ed Linux for coming on 15 years and I've written Windows software for over 10 - I have quite a bit of experience with both. They both have good and bad sides, and I run my personal servers on Linux myself. That said, the arguments used here against Windows are plain false and reek of Slashdot-style fanboyism).

kamaal 15y ago

WTF are you talking about? Have you ever seen a Windows box since Windows 95? Why is it so difficult for people to make a point without making personal remarks?

jholman 15y ago
Speaking as someone who refuses good money when it involves working on Windows, because no one's offering me enough money for that level of pain... Seriously, if you claim that a drawback of Windows is that it doesn't allow multi-user login, then it's hard not to ask "WTF are you talking about? Really, what are you talking about? Are you stuck in some circa-1995 reference frame? That doesn't even make sense!" So I'm not sure that it was a personal remark. It may have just been honest lack of comprehension.
roel_v 15y ago
There is a distinction between 'ad hominem' and 'refuting an opponent's ethos'. Somebody made a factual claim about something, therefore implying some form of at least familiarity with the subject at hand. When his arguments show the he lacks even the most basic of such familiarity, then calling that out is not an ad hominem.