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What an disingenuous article. Yes natural gas appliances help to cook the climate. Farting also releases methane and helps cook the climate. Can we focus on th

What an disingenuous article. Yes natural gas appliances help to cook the climate. Farting also releases methane and helps cook the climate. Can we focus on the real issues. USA natural gas kitchen appliances aren’t the main contributor to climate change. I’d be surprised if it’s even in the top 1000 issues. You might say you can work on multiple issues - sure, but people only have so much time to research on issues and so much attention to spare. Furthermore who is going to fund all of this conversion to induction? Whose going to require the tens of millions of homes to high gauge and high voltage wiring? /rant

bayindirh 5y ago
Induction or electric stoves doesn't need high gauge, insane current wiring to work. In EU, You can power one from a 220V/16A fuse, and you don't even need to dedicate that circuit to it. Mine is connected to a bog standard wall outlet (It came with a plug).
- endisneigh 5y ago
  You cannot replace a gas oven and 5 burner stove as shown in the paper with a 16A induction stove. Furthermore the oven you use will likely be resistive and inefficient, likely being derived from dirtier energy like coal. Or ironically also from natural gas to begin with.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
    You can get a set or get them independently. Bosch is recommending 16A even for sets for ~20 years (we had one?). Both ovens we have (the older and the newer ones) are hidden element, isolated units which spend most of their time off after reaching to the desired temperature, and they're not burning through energy all the time. And the ceramic coating inside them are self cleaning with the cooking heat too. You can't guarantee renewables everywhere, can you?
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      Perhaps that’s true but USA wiring is 120V /15A per breaker without rewiring so your point isn’t really relevant. Older houses might even be 110V and not have dedicated circuits in the kitchen. Not sure why you even brought up anywhere that’s not the US when the paper is talking specifically about US kitchens
      - bayindirh 5y ago
        I'm talking about the possible technology, and isn't US electrical code allows 220V outlets for high power applications like washer/drier sets? Do I have been lied to?
        endisneigh 5y ago
        The point is that kitchens don’t have 220V outlets generally. converting costs money, a lot of it. Money better spent fixing industrial issues.
        tagoregrtst 5y ago
        It cost me $400 to have an electrician instal a 220V NEMA plug in my home. Granted, it was an easy instal - unfinished, small basement giving easy access to the kitchen and 20 feet of 50 A cable.
        vel0city 5y ago
        A one-story house with an unfinished basement makes it sooo easy to do a lot of common home upgrades. I'm jealous, everything around me is just slab-style houses so it can be a pain to do anything like plumbing work without just resorting to having stuff in the attic.
        vel0city 5y ago
        > kitchens don’t have 220V outlets generally I'm from the US. Every home I've lived in (9) has had at least one or more 240V 30A circuits in the kitchen, my current home has 2 and it was built in the 80s so not exactly a modern build. There usually aren't a lot of outlets, as things like built-in ovens and ranges are often hardwired and not on a plug. Though the stand-alone oven/range units do often have a plug, but you don't normally see it unless you're swapping out units. They'll usually have a NEMA 14-30 or 10-30.
- pandaman 5y ago
  I am not a physicist but from high school physics I've got an impression that the DC power is VxI, and AC power is less than that (averaging the instantaneous VxI value) so the 220Vx16A is going to give at most 3.5K watt, right? I've checked the specs and my stove's burners are 3 x 18K and 3 x 15K BTU/h. Which is approximately 5K and 4K watt. Even one of the small burners is more powerful than the entire stove you mentioned. I am sure an induction stove does not waste any energy and everything goes only in the heating the pan but I don't see how can this account for an order of magnitude in power difference.
  - tagoregrtst 5y ago
    220 V is already in RMS [1] so its just 220V * 16 A = 3.5kW (current is also rms) Of course, thats truly only correct for a resistive load (but, without knowing much about induction stoves, its probably within 10% - modern power electronics are amazing) [1] Root Mean Square. Basically the measure needed to make a simply multiplication give you the power. Other ways to measure line voltage are Amplitude. This would be the A in V(t) = Asin(wt). A = sqrt(Vrms) Peak to peak. This is 2xA. They’re all useful ways to thinking of the same thing. If you’re designing insulation you’re designing for A, or peak to peak. If you’re designing a water kettle, you’re interested in Vrms.
    - pandaman 5y ago
      Great, let's say it can draw 4Kwatt from the wall. It's still nowhere close to a 100K BTU stove (~28Kwatt). To have this much of electric power in the US you'd need a 120A 220V (actually 240 nowadays) outlet. I don't even know if codes allow this much current inside the house.
      - bayindirh 5y ago
        The heat of the fire is not completely transferred to the cooking utensil due to air and losses, on induction and resistive stove tops, the heat losses are much lower since you don't heat anything in inductive (magnetic field heats the metal directly), and electric stovetops have no air-gap to transfer heat. So, in the end, 90% of the time you're looking at the same cooking duration at the end of the day. So, you don't need that 120A load. In other words, if the box says 5 minutes on medium, it's 5 minutes on medium. Regardless of gas, electric or induction.
ghostly_s 5y ago
I can't see the paywalled article, but I believe the main point of the underlying research was not climate change but the impact on indoor air quality and unrecognized hazard to human health.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I read the paper and they do not contextualize the effects in terms of actual illness or life expectancy. It’s as useful as saying the emissions from frying food is bad for you, which is true, but simultaneously not really meaningful.

bayindirh 5y ago

Induction or electric stoves doesn't need high gauge, insane current wiring to work. In EU, You can power one from a 220V/16A fuse, and you don't even need to dedicate that circuit to it. Mine is connected to a bog standard wall outlet (It came with a plug).

endisneigh 5y ago
You cannot replace a gas oven and 5 burner stove as shown in the paper with a 16A induction stove. Furthermore the oven you use will likely be resistive and inefficient, likely being derived from dirtier energy like coal. Or ironically also from natural gas to begin with.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  You can get a set or get them independently. Bosch is recommending 16A even for sets for ~20 years (we had one?). Both ovens we have (the older and the newer ones) are hidden element, isolated units which spend most of their time off after reaching to the desired temperature, and they're not burning through energy all the time. And the ceramic coating inside them are self cleaning with the cooking heat too. You can't guarantee renewables everywhere, can you?
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Perhaps that’s true but USA wiring is 120V /15A per breaker without rewiring so your point isn’t really relevant. Older houses might even be 110V and not have dedicated circuits in the kitchen. Not sure why you even brought up anywhere that’s not the US when the paper is talking specifically about US kitchens
    - bayindirh 5y ago
      I'm talking about the possible technology, and isn't US electrical code allows 220V outlets for high power applications like washer/drier sets? Do I have been lied to?
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        The point is that kitchens don’t have 220V outlets generally. converting costs money, a lot of it. Money better spent fixing industrial issues.
        tagoregrtst 5y ago
        It cost me $400 to have an electrician instal a 220V NEMA plug in my home. Granted, it was an easy instal - unfinished, small basement giving easy access to the kitchen and 20 feet of 50 A cable.
        vel0city 5y ago
        A one-story house with an unfinished basement makes it sooo easy to do a lot of common home upgrades. I'm jealous, everything around me is just slab-style houses so it can be a pain to do anything like plumbing work without just resorting to having stuff in the attic.
        vel0city 5y ago
        > kitchens don’t have 220V outlets generally I'm from the US. Every home I've lived in (9) has had at least one or more 240V 30A circuits in the kitchen, my current home has 2 and it was built in the 80s so not exactly a modern build. There usually aren't a lot of outlets, as things like built-in ovens and ranges are often hardwired and not on a plug. Though the stand-alone oven/range units do often have a plug, but you don't normally see it unless you're swapping out units. They'll usually have a NEMA 14-30 or 10-30.
pandaman 5y ago
I am not a physicist but from high school physics I've got an impression that the DC power is VxI, and AC power is less than that (averaging the instantaneous VxI value) so the 220Vx16A is going to give at most 3.5K watt, right? I've checked the specs and my stove's burners are 3 x 18K and 3 x 15K BTU/h. Which is approximately 5K and 4K watt. Even one of the small burners is more powerful than the entire stove you mentioned. I am sure an induction stove does not waste any energy and everything goes only in the heating the pan but I don't see how can this account for an order of magnitude in power difference.
- tagoregrtst 5y ago
  220 V is already in RMS [1] so its just 220V * 16 A = 3.5kW (current is also rms) Of course, thats truly only correct for a resistive load (but, without knowing much about induction stoves, its probably within 10% - modern power electronics are amazing) [1] Root Mean Square. Basically the measure needed to make a simply multiplication give you the power. Other ways to measure line voltage are Amplitude. This would be the A in V(t) = Asin(wt). A = sqrt(Vrms) Peak to peak. This is 2xA. They’re all useful ways to thinking of the same thing. If you’re designing insulation you’re designing for A, or peak to peak. If you’re designing a water kettle, you’re interested in Vrms.
  - pandaman 5y ago
    Great, let's say it can draw 4Kwatt from the wall. It's still nowhere close to a 100K BTU stove (~28Kwatt). To have this much of electric power in the US you'd need a 120A 220V (actually 240 nowadays) outlet. I don't even know if codes allow this much current inside the house.
    - bayindirh 5y ago
      The heat of the fire is not completely transferred to the cooking utensil due to air and losses, on induction and resistive stove tops, the heat losses are much lower since you don't heat anything in inductive (magnetic field heats the metal directly), and electric stovetops have no air-gap to transfer heat. So, in the end, 90% of the time you're looking at the same cooking duration at the end of the day. So, you don't need that 120A load. In other words, if the box says 5 minutes on medium, it's 5 minutes on medium. Regardless of gas, electric or induction.

ghostly_s 5y ago

I can't see the paywalled article, but I believe the main point of the underlying research was not climate change but the impact on indoor air quality and unrecognized hazard to human health.

endisneigh 5y ago
I read the paper and they do not contextualize the effects in terms of actual illness or life expectancy. It’s as useful as saying the emissions from frying food is bad for you, which is true, but simultaneously not really meaningful.