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> You don't (and shouldn't) have a "right" to develop for it on anything but Apple's terms. That's one perspective. However I would argue that Apple is big eno

> You don't (and shouldn't) have a "right" to develop for it on anything but Apple's terms. That's one perspective. However I would argue that Apple is big enough, and the number of alternative platforms is small enough, that it is in the Public Interest that Apple be required by the government (aka, Us, collectively), to play by a different set of rules, rules that are decided by you know, Democracy, rather than by fiat.

thegrimmest 5y ago
Who is being hurt here? Users are clearly flocking to this platform because it does what they want. Who cares that app developers are unhappy? There are lots and lots of smartphone manufacturers. It's a thriving market. Most non-technical folks don't perceive the device and the OS as separate things. If any company wants to disrupt the market, much like Apple itself did with the iPhone, there is literally nothing stopping them. Edit: > rules that are decided by you know, Democracy At what point does democracy overreach? Is there one? Isn't it "democracy in defense of liberty"?
- yulaow 5y ago
  If we are sure people like so much apple services and integration, should be no problem at all to have alternatives not even directly managed by apple (so that it won't cost anything to apple to support it, except for opening some "store api"), still most users would keep using only the integrated apple services... or not? Maybe users would like them even more!
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    The point here is that Apple itself should be able to choose when and how and to whom it open the Apple Store. It should not be compelled to do so by anyone but its own directors and shareholders. If someone wants to sell phones that don't have this limitation, they are free to seek investment and build them.
    - pixl97 5y ago
      There are two different things here. First is the Apple Store, and you are correct you have no right to have your application on it. Second is the hardware device I paid money for and exists in my pocket. There is no reasonable right that Apple says "Only we can put a program on it, and you will have no ability to run your own programs on it" We live in a world where hardware makers of all kinds think we own them a permanent rent. It is a poor and expensive path to let them continue.
      - thegrimmest 5y ago
        You can indeed do whatever you want with your iPhone. You can throw it in a blender if it pleases you. That doesn't mean Apple is obligated to make it easy for you. Apple has sold you a device with a given hardware/software configuration, just like Samsung when they sell you a washing machine. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        For right to repair reasons maybe you should have such a right over a washer or tractor or printer
    - commoner 5y ago
      It's not reasonable to expect other app stores to build their own mobile operating systems, which is why there is momentum among lawmakers in the U.S. to pass a bill that protects the right of users to use alternative app stores and sideload apps.[1] It is unjust for Apple to use its market power in the U.S. smartphone industry (57% market share in Q4 2021)[2] to force users and developers to endure the effects of a 15-30% fee (offset by a 17.6-42.9% price increase) on the majority of revenue generated by app developers, a fee that would not survive a market where multiple app stores were able to compete for iOS users. Apple's market share is different in the Netherlands, but strong regulations in one major market are all it takes to punch a hole in Apple's monopoly/duopoly position. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195167 [2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/q4-2021-us-smartphone-market/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/q4-2021-us-smartphone-m...
- clusterfish 5y ago
  Users have no choice, the market is a duopoly, and Android app store has all the same problems (because it's a duopoly). You can't feasibly escape platform tax on mobile.
  - Retric 5y ago
    You don’t need to use Google’s android App Store on Android.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      They make it sufficiently arduous to do otherwise that the bar is higher than what ordinary people can reach. The proof that this is not the case will be when a single store has less than half of the Android app market.
      - charcircuit 5y ago
        Installing fdroid was really easy. I don't remember it being arduous.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        It's a pain to keep FDroid installed apps updated. Silent background updates are impossible. Yet Play Store can do it.
        charcircuit 5y ago
        Is clicking on the notification and then clicking install that hard to do?
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        It's friction. IME the updates often fail too. Then nag again and again.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Yep, apple and google are basically a duopoly, and if you want a "normal smartphone" (basically a device, where you can get apps for your online banking, mainstream games and other content, etc.), there are basically no real alternatives.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  If you think that there's enough demand for such a device to justify the expense in developing it, you should have no problems attracting investment to build it, don't you think?
  - YmiYugy 5y ago
    You mean this couldn't possibly be a market failure?
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      That depends on how you define the term. If you're suggesting things are less than optimal, I'm perfectly glad to agree with you. If you're suggesting we should use the force of regulation to attempt to optimize them, you've lost me.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Unfortunately iOS and Android have incredible lock in in addition to more than a decade head start. Just like Oracle is able to continue making $40 billion a year even though their product is ass.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      That can be rephrased as "Oracle is continuing to see a return on its investment and innovation in RDBMS from the 80's into the 2000s". Why is this a bad thing?
      - colinmhayes 5y ago

thegrimmest 5y ago

Who is being hurt here? Users are clearly flocking to this platform because it does what they want. Who cares that app developers are unhappy? There are lots and lots of smartphone manufacturers. It's a thriving market. Most non-technical folks don't perceive the device and the OS as separate things. If any company wants to disrupt the market, much like Apple itself did with the iPhone, there is literally nothing stopping them. Edit: > rules that are decided by you know, Democracy At what point does democracy overreach? Is there one? Isn't it "democracy in defense of liberty"?

yulaow 5y ago
If we are sure people like so much apple services and integration, should be no problem at all to have alternatives not even directly managed by apple (so that it won't cost anything to apple to support it, except for opening some "store api"), still most users would keep using only the integrated apple services... or not? Maybe users would like them even more!
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  The point here is that Apple itself should be able to choose when and how and to whom it open the Apple Store. It should not be compelled to do so by anyone but its own directors and shareholders. If someone wants to sell phones that don't have this limitation, they are free to seek investment and build them.
  - pixl97 5y ago
    There are two different things here. First is the Apple Store, and you are correct you have no right to have your application on it. Second is the hardware device I paid money for and exists in my pocket. There is no reasonable right that Apple says "Only we can put a program on it, and you will have no ability to run your own programs on it" We live in a world where hardware makers of all kinds think we own them a permanent rent. It is a poor and expensive path to let them continue.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      You can indeed do whatever you want with your iPhone. You can throw it in a blender if it pleases you. That doesn't mean Apple is obligated to make it easy for you. Apple has sold you a device with a given hardware/software configuration, just like Samsung when they sell you a washing machine. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
        For right to repair reasons maybe you should have such a right over a washer or tractor or printer
  - commoner 5y ago
    It's not reasonable to expect other app stores to build their own mobile operating systems, which is why there is momentum among lawmakers in the U.S. to pass a bill that protects the right of users to use alternative app stores and sideload apps.[1] It is unjust for Apple to use its market power in the U.S. smartphone industry (57% market share in Q4 2021)[2] to force users and developers to endure the effects of a 15-30% fee (offset by a 17.6-42.9% price increase) on the majority of revenue generated by app developers, a fee that would not survive a market where multiple app stores were able to compete for iOS users. Apple's market share is different in the Netherlands, but strong regulations in one major market are all it takes to punch a hole in Apple's monopoly/duopoly position. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195167 [2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/q4-2021-us-smartphone-market/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/q4-2021-us-smartphone-m...
clusterfish 5y ago
Users have no choice, the market is a duopoly, and Android app store has all the same problems (because it's a duopoly). You can't feasibly escape platform tax on mobile.
- Retric 5y ago
  You don’t need to use Google’s android App Store on Android.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    They make it sufficiently arduous to do otherwise that the bar is higher than what ordinary people can reach. The proof that this is not the case will be when a single store has less than half of the Android app market.
    - charcircuit 5y ago
      Installing fdroid was really easy. I don't remember it being arduous.
      - paulryanrogers 5y ago
        It's a pain to keep FDroid installed apps updated. Silent background updates are impossible. Yet Play Store can do it.
        charcircuit 5y ago
        Is clicking on the notification and then clicking install that hard to do?
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        It's friction. IME the updates often fail too. Then nag again and again.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

Yep, apple and google are basically a duopoly, and if you want a "normal smartphone" (basically a device, where you can get apps for your online banking, mainstream games and other content, etc.), there are basically no real alternatives.

thegrimmest 5y ago
If you think that there's enough demand for such a device to justify the expense in developing it, you should have no problems attracting investment to build it, don't you think?
- YmiYugy 5y ago
  You mean this couldn't possibly be a market failure?
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    That depends on how you define the term. If you're suggesting things are less than optimal, I'm perfectly glad to agree with you. If you're suggesting we should use the force of regulation to attempt to optimize them, you've lost me.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Unfortunately iOS and Android have incredible lock in in addition to more than a decade head start. Just like Oracle is able to continue making $40 billion a year even though their product is ass.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    That can be rephrased as "Oracle is continuing to see a return on its investment and innovation in RDBMS from the 80's into the 2000s". Why is this a bad thing?
    - colinmhayes 5y ago