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I always wondered how generative ML models can be used for creating big worlds like the one in GTA. Like every tree can be unique using a generative model. Has

by msoad 5y ago

I always wondered how generative ML models can be used for creating big worlds like the one in GTA. Like every tree can be unique using a generative model. Has there been any development in this area?

the_duke 5y ago
Trees are nice, but I'd care much more about distinct NPCs , preferably with some ML aided dialog.
- Shared404 5y ago
  > preferably with some ML aided dialog. Having played AI dungeon, I don't think we're there yet.
f6v 5y ago
They used ML to upscale GTA Trilogy. That didn’t go amazing.
- ErneX 5y ago
  It wasn't Rockstar
- jowday 5y ago
  I don't think this is true - most of the examples people cite look more like they used underpaid contractors to manually recreate storefronts and billboards with shoddy clip art and plain fonts. ML-based upscaling wouldn't replace the hot dog in the background here with a completely different style of hot dog like in this example. https://www.reddit.com/r/GTA/comments/qs22ee/this_is_unforgivable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GTA/comments/qs22ee/this_is_unforgi... The idea that they hacked a bunch of ML models together to do that instead of just outsourcing it doesn't hold up to muster.
jowday 5y ago
This has been a thing for a long time, just not with generative ML models - most solutions use rule-based procedural generation. A large fraction of trees in games have been generated this way since the mid 2000s - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree
sharken 5y ago
Actually, I'd rather see some progress in housing. As in being able to go into a building, with a different unique experience each time. But perhaps GTA is a bad fit for this kind of innovation.
Macha 5y ago
You don't want every tree to be unique on a map you're going to pregenerate and ship to users. It's going to bloat the size with all the tree models. If you're going to generate them at runtime on the other hand, you need to seed it so in a multiplayer game everyone has the same tree (in case it has a hitbox or whatever), and you don't want to risk having crappy looking trees in important locations if that's just the one where the model didn't work so well. Procedural generation of trees has been available forever, it didn't take ML to make it work, and it's generally not been considered worthwhile
wongarsu 5y ago
Generating worlds automatically has long been done and refined, the keyword to look for is "procedural generation". The problem is that these often end up "soulless". The way around that is usually not ML but simulating the world's history: to generate interesting terrain start with boring terrain, then simulate a couple thousand years of erosion. To generate a city start with a village, then grow it over the years. To make a forest interesting simulate trees growing and competing for light for a couple centuries. This quickly gets complex and computationally intensive, so usually you end up with human artists guiding a much simpler process instead.
cptcobalt 5y ago
There's a great talk about Procedurally Generating Manhattan for Spiderman that's worth watching and covers things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aw9uyj9MAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aw9uyj9MAE If you think this is interesting, all of the Spiderman GDC talks by the various staff of Insomniac Games are S-Tier.
boarnoah 5y ago
It has its applications in a different way, tool assisted level design. Software suites like Houdini, which is something of an industry standard in VFX and gamedev can potentially leverage ML techniques. AFAIK the folks who make Houdini have talked in the past about using ML to improve their terrain heightmap modelling, improving the quality of the erosion etc... The real value add with using procedural tools to automate creating parts of large worlds (eroded terrain, placement of foliage according to rules) is that it frees up artist time to focus on hand crafting individual locations and detail into the map. There is an interesting talk from Ubisoft which talks about how they leverage tools for building their large worlds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfizT369g60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfizT369g60 (slides: https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc2018/presentations/ProceduralWorldGeneration.pdf https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc2018/pres...)

by msoad 5y ago

the_duke 5y ago

Trees are nice, but I'd care much more about distinct NPCs , preferably with some ML aided dialog.

Shared404 5y ago
> preferably with some ML aided dialog. Having played AI dungeon, I don't think we're there yet.

f6v 5y ago

They used ML to upscale GTA Trilogy. That didn’t go amazing.

ErneX 5y ago
It wasn't Rockstar
jowday 5y ago
I don't think this is true - most of the examples people cite look more like they used underpaid contractors to manually recreate storefronts and billboards with shoddy clip art and plain fonts. ML-based upscaling wouldn't replace the hot dog in the background here with a completely different style of hot dog like in this example. https://www.reddit.com/r/GTA/comments/qs22ee/this_is_unforgivable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GTA/comments/qs22ee/this_is_unforgi... The idea that they hacked a bunch of ML models together to do that instead of just outsourcing it doesn't hold up to muster.

jowday 5y ago

This has been a thing for a long time, just not with generative ML models - most solutions use rule-based procedural generation. A large fraction of trees in games have been generated this way since the mid 2000s - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedTree

sharken 5y ago

Actually, I'd rather see some progress in housing. As in being able to go into a building, with a different unique experience each time. But perhaps GTA is a bad fit for this kind of innovation.

Macha 5y ago

You don't want every tree to be unique on a map you're going to pregenerate and ship to users. It's going to bloat the size with all the tree models. If you're going to generate them at runtime on the other hand, you need to seed it so in a multiplayer game everyone has the same tree (in case it has a hitbox or whatever), and you don't want to risk having crappy looking trees in important locations if that's just the one where the model didn't work so well. Procedural generation of trees has been available forever, it didn't take ML to make it work, and it's generally not been considered worthwhile

wongarsu 5y ago

Generating worlds automatically has long been done and refined, the keyword to look for is "procedural generation". The problem is that these often end up "soulless". The way around that is usually not ML but simulating the world's history: to generate interesting terrain start with boring terrain, then simulate a couple thousand years of erosion. To generate a city start with a village, then grow it over the years. To make a forest interesting simulate trees growing and competing for light for a couple centuries. This quickly gets complex and computationally intensive, so usually you end up with human artists guiding a much simpler process instead.

cptcobalt 5y ago

There's a great talk about Procedurally Generating Manhattan for Spiderman that's worth watching and covers things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aw9uyj9MAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aw9uyj9MAE If you think this is interesting, all of the Spiderman GDC talks by the various staff of Insomniac Games are S-Tier.

boarnoah 5y ago

It has its applications in a different way, tool assisted level design. Software suites like Houdini, which is something of an industry standard in VFX and gamedev can potentially leverage ML techniques. AFAIK the folks who make Houdini have talked in the past about using ML to improve their terrain heightmap modelling, improving the quality of the erosion etc... The real value add with using procedural tools to automate creating parts of large worlds (eroded terrain, placement of foliage according to rules) is that it frees up artist time to focus on hand crafting individual locations and detail into the map. There is an interesting talk from Ubisoft which talks about how they leverage tools for building their large worlds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfizT369g60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfizT369g60 (slides: https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc2018/presentations/ProceduralWorldGeneration.pdf https://ubm-twvideo01.s3.amazonaws.com/o1/vault/gdc2018/pres...)