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Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. The same way when automakers tried a si

Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. The same way when automakers tried a similar game and then.. the government stepped in, slapped the tar out of them with regulation, and told them to play nicely with third parties or lose the ability to do business. Or when utilities had natural monopolies were preventing competition and.. then the government put strict regulations on them, set pricing rules and allowed significant control of them. The answer is that if the two dominant parties have managed to keep out competitors and basically engage in collusion, the government should correct the situation.

endisneigh 5y ago
You can make a web app which can be run on the same phones with no fees. The vast majority of apps can be implemented as web apps. Comparing utilities, based on physical constraints, with digital goods doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t require any effort to make a web app relative to the status quo. Furthermore your example doesn’t make any sense because you make money with Apple and pay a fee - you’re not paying for nothing. Natural gas, for example, has constraints around distribution and collection. These don’t exist for apps. Ironically, if more developers just made web apps instead of going to app stores it would not only make their apps more accessible as they are inherently cross platform, but would likely lead to the creation of a web App Store to resolve the distribution problem.
- astlouis44 5y ago
  This. Especially with the advent of technologies like WebAssembly, WebGPU, and WebXR, developers can now distribute real-time 3D applications like games universally via the open web, without having to sacrifice 30% to a walled garden.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Do those APIs work on safari, the only browser you can have on iOS? No. No they don't. Oops.
    - syspec 5y ago
      Now that's just a flat out lie
      - vorpalhex 5y ago
        https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu Sorry, who is lying again?
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Except your PWAs won't run or be very nerfed on Safari because it is missing and has been missing all of those APIs for many years. You could just install Chrome.. oh wait no, no you can't. Apple won't let you.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    So what? It’s an option. If more people take it, it will get better. Stadia is literally a web app on iOS, for example.
kmlx 5y ago
> Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. no, you just need a webapp.
- astlouis44 5y ago
  Yup. Wish more developers would realize this.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    I wish more developers would realize Safari doesn't support most modern browser APIs.
    - kmlx 5y ago
      it depends how modern, but most are there. we develop primarily on safari and see no issues.
abletonlive 5y ago
> Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. So should companies not be rewarded for making an awesome system so they can charge these commissions? I mean Amazon and Microsoft can't blame Apple for their failure to produce phones people want to use...they certainly had the resources, and still do.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  They are.. by selling a phone. You didn't get your iphone for free. Apple makes money off the hardware - more money than it does the app store.
  - abletonlive 5y ago
    So you're arguing that because apple makes a profit from the initial sale of the phone...they shouldn't also make a profit from the services they provide for that phone (such as maintaining an app store and the infrastructure for that app store)? That's a bold position to take. What makes you feel entitled to that? Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? I'm pretty confused about how you're justifying this argument. It seems to me that you think all developers have some kind of entitlement to make a profit off of Apple's ecosystem without Apple making a profit from an ecosystem they risked a lot to build, because Apple is already making a profit off the iPhone. Am I following that correctly?
    - aspenmayer 5y ago
      > Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? Yes, the original iPhone 2G. It didn’t even have App Store on launch version of iOS. In fact, Cydia, the original jailbreak app store, existed on iOS before the official App Store. Saurik can speak to any fees for paid apps featured on Cydia. I remember an SMS app that allowed reply from notifications that I bought through Cydia, but I forget the name, maybe biteSMS? Most apps were entirely free, and Cydia supports adding arbitrary repositories. So, arguably, the original app purchasing experience on iOS was free and open source. Apple and their App Store couldn’t compete, and thus the war against right to compute and jailbreaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS)

endisneigh 5y ago

You can make a web app which can be run on the same phones with no fees. The vast majority of apps can be implemented as web apps. Comparing utilities, based on physical constraints, with digital goods doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t require any effort to make a web app relative to the status quo. Furthermore your example doesn’t make any sense because you make money with Apple and pay a fee - you’re not paying for nothing. Natural gas, for example, has constraints around distribution and collection. These don’t exist for apps. Ironically, if more developers just made web apps instead of going to app stores it would not only make their apps more accessible as they are inherently cross platform, but would likely lead to the creation of a web App Store to resolve the distribution problem.

astlouis44 5y ago
This. Especially with the advent of technologies like WebAssembly, WebGPU, and WebXR, developers can now distribute real-time 3D applications like games universally via the open web, without having to sacrifice 30% to a walled garden.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Do those APIs work on safari, the only browser you can have on iOS? No. No they don't. Oops.
  - syspec 5y ago
    Now that's just a flat out lie
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu Sorry, who is lying again?
vorpalhex 5y ago
Except your PWAs won't run or be very nerfed on Safari because it is missing and has been missing all of those APIs for many years. You could just install Chrome.. oh wait no, no you can't. Apple won't let you.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  So what? It’s an option. If more people take it, it will get better. Stadia is literally a web app on iOS, for example.

kmlx 5y ago

> Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. no, you just need a webapp.

astlouis44 5y ago
Yup. Wish more developers would realize this.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  I wish more developers would realize Safari doesn't support most modern browser APIs.
  - kmlx 5y ago
    it depends how modern, but most are there. we develop primarily on safari and see no issues.

abletonlive 5y ago

> Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. So should companies not be rewarded for making an awesome system so they can charge these commissions? I mean Amazon and Microsoft can't blame Apple for their failure to produce phones people want to use...they certainly had the resources, and still do.

vorpalhex 5y ago
They are.. by selling a phone. You didn't get your iphone for free. Apple makes money off the hardware - more money than it does the app store.
- abletonlive 5y ago
  So you're arguing that because apple makes a profit from the initial sale of the phone...they shouldn't also make a profit from the services they provide for that phone (such as maintaining an app store and the infrastructure for that app store)? That's a bold position to take. What makes you feel entitled to that? Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? I'm pretty confused about how you're justifying this argument. It seems to me that you think all developers have some kind of entitlement to make a profit off of Apple's ecosystem without Apple making a profit from an ecosystem they risked a lot to build, because Apple is already making a profit off the iPhone. Am I following that correctly?
  - aspenmayer 5y ago
    > Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? Yes, the original iPhone 2G. It didn’t even have App Store on launch version of iOS. In fact, Cydia, the original jailbreak app store, existed on iOS before the official App Store. Saurik can speak to any fees for paid apps featured on Cydia. I remember an SMS app that allowed reply from notifications that I bought through Cydia, but I forget the name, maybe biteSMS? Most apps were entirely free, and Cydia supports adding arbitrary repositories. So, arguably, the original app purchasing experience on iOS was free and open source. Apple and their App Store couldn’t compete, and thus the war against right to compute and jailbreaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS)