4 ms·

What I don’t understand is - if you don’t like the fees, why don’t you just not use it? If you make money after the fees then isn’t it worth it compared to the

What I don’t understand is - if you don’t like the fees, why don’t you just not use it? If you make money after the fees then isn’t it worth it compared to the alternative? If people actually just stood firm against the fees then viable alternatives would manifest.

vorpalhex 5y ago
Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. The same way when automakers tried a similar game and then.. the government stepped in, slapped the tar out of them with regulation, and told them to play nicely with third parties or lose the ability to do business. Or when utilities had natural monopolies were preventing competition and.. then the government put strict regulations on them, set pricing rules and allowed significant control of them. The answer is that if the two dominant parties have managed to keep out competitors and basically engage in collusion, the government should correct the situation.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  You can make a web app which can be run on the same phones with no fees. The vast majority of apps can be implemented as web apps. Comparing utilities, based on physical constraints, with digital goods doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t require any effort to make a web app relative to the status quo. Furthermore your example doesn’t make any sense because you make money with Apple and pay a fee - you’re not paying for nothing. Natural gas, for example, has constraints around distribution and collection. These don’t exist for apps. Ironically, if more developers just made web apps instead of going to app stores it would not only make their apps more accessible as they are inherently cross platform, but would likely lead to the creation of a web App Store to resolve the distribution problem.
  - astlouis44 5y ago
    This. Especially with the advent of technologies like WebAssembly, WebGPU, and WebXR, developers can now distribute real-time 3D applications like games universally via the open web, without having to sacrifice 30% to a walled garden.
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      Do those APIs work on safari, the only browser you can have on iOS? No. No they don't. Oops.
      - syspec 5y ago
        Now that's just a flat out lie
        vorpalhex 5y ago
        https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu Sorry, who is lying again?
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Except your PWAs won't run or be very nerfed on Safari because it is missing and has been missing all of those APIs for many years. You could just install Chrome.. oh wait no, no you can't. Apple won't let you.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      So what? It’s an option. If more people take it, it will get better. Stadia is literally a web app on iOS, for example.
- kmlx 5y ago
  > Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. no, you just need a webapp.
  - astlouis44 5y ago
    Yup. Wish more developers would realize this.
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      I wish more developers would realize Safari doesn't support most modern browser APIs.
      - kmlx 5y ago
        it depends how modern, but most are there. we develop primarily on safari and see no issues.
- abletonlive 5y ago
  > Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. So should companies not be rewarded for making an awesome system so they can charge these commissions? I mean Amazon and Microsoft can't blame Apple for their failure to produce phones people want to use...they certainly had the resources, and still do.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    They are.. by selling a phone. You didn't get your iphone for free. Apple makes money off the hardware - more money than it does the app store.
    - abletonlive 5y ago
      So you're arguing that because apple makes a profit from the initial sale of the phone...they shouldn't also make a profit from the services they provide for that phone (such as maintaining an app store and the infrastructure for that app store)? That's a bold position to take. What makes you feel entitled to that? Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? I'm pretty confused about how you're justifying this argument. It seems to me that you think all developers have some kind of entitlement to make a profit off of Apple's ecosystem without Apple making a profit from an ecosystem they risked a lot to build, because Apple is already making a profit off the iPhone. Am I following that correctly?
      - aspenmayer 5y ago
        > Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? Yes, the original iPhone 2G. It didn’t even have App Store on launch version of iOS. In fact, Cydia, the original jailbreak app store, existed on iOS before the official App Store. Saurik can speak to any fees for paid apps featured on Cydia. I remember an SMS app that allowed reply from notifications that I bought through Cydia, but I forget the name, maybe biteSMS? Most apps were entirely free, and Cydia supports adding arbitrary repositories. So, arguably, the original app purchasing experience on iOS was free and open source. Apple and their App Store couldn’t compete, and thus the war against right to compute and jailbreaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS)
ApolloFortyNine 5y ago
Good luck running a business where (in the US) you lose 50% of potential customers instantly, and those 50% will tell everyone else to use x because it's available on both platforms. It's really the 50% shouting on social media that hurts the most. Instead of maybe recommending your app, they will recommend one of your competitors that support both.
post_break 5y ago
How many options do you have for gas, water, or power where you live? If I don't like the $18 a month fee for my gas bill, before I use a single ccf of natural gas can I just not use it? If I don't like the app store fees can I just not use it? You see what I'm getting at?
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Silly comparison - natural gas prices are regulated, but furthermore you don’t make money from your natural gas payment inherently. You only pay Apple store fees if you make money. Your comparison is dumb. Charge more to your users and be done with it a all of your Apple competitors are bound by the same rule.
  - post_break 5y ago
    If I make an app that Apple doesn't like, I can't put it on my iPhone. I literally cannot put my own apps on my phone. Or install apps from developers outside of the app store. I can do so on my computer, why not my phone. "well just switch to android" isn't a good excuse.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      You can make a web app that works on safari, which runs on iPhones. So your entire point is wrong. Do you think this site you’re on is originally an iPhone app?
      - post_break 5y ago
        Ahh yes, you want a native app on your phone? I can offer a website instead.

vorpalhex 5y ago

Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. The same way when automakers tried a similar game and then.. the government stepped in, slapped the tar out of them with regulation, and told them to play nicely with third parties or lose the ability to do business. Or when utilities had natural monopolies were preventing competition and.. then the government put strict regulations on them, set pricing rules and allowed significant control of them. The answer is that if the two dominant parties have managed to keep out competitors and basically engage in collusion, the government should correct the situation.

endisneigh 5y ago
You can make a web app which can be run on the same phones with no fees. The vast majority of apps can be implemented as web apps. Comparing utilities, based on physical constraints, with digital goods doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t require any effort to make a web app relative to the status quo. Furthermore your example doesn’t make any sense because you make money with Apple and pay a fee - you’re not paying for nothing. Natural gas, for example, has constraints around distribution and collection. These don’t exist for apps. Ironically, if more developers just made web apps instead of going to app stores it would not only make their apps more accessible as they are inherently cross platform, but would likely lead to the creation of a web App Store to resolve the distribution problem.
- astlouis44 5y ago
  This. Especially with the advent of technologies like WebAssembly, WebGPU, and WebXR, developers can now distribute real-time 3D applications like games universally via the open web, without having to sacrifice 30% to a walled garden.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Do those APIs work on safari, the only browser you can have on iOS? No. No they don't. Oops.
    - syspec 5y ago
      Now that's just a flat out lie
      - vorpalhex 5y ago
        https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu https://caniuse.com/?search=webgpu Sorry, who is lying again?
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Except your PWAs won't run or be very nerfed on Safari because it is missing and has been missing all of those APIs for many years. You could just install Chrome.. oh wait no, no you can't. Apple won't let you.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    So what? It’s an option. If more people take it, it will get better. Stadia is literally a web app on iOS, for example.
kmlx 5y ago
> Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. no, you just need a webapp.
- astlouis44 5y ago
  Yup. Wish more developers would realize this.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    I wish more developers would realize Safari doesn't support most modern browser APIs.
    - kmlx 5y ago
      it depends how modern, but most are there. we develop primarily on safari and see no issues.
abletonlive 5y ago
> Yeah, if you don't like the fee, just make your own phone hardware, your own processor, your own screens, your own OS.. So should companies not be rewarded for making an awesome system so they can charge these commissions? I mean Amazon and Microsoft can't blame Apple for their failure to produce phones people want to use...they certainly had the resources, and still do.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  They are.. by selling a phone. You didn't get your iphone for free. Apple makes money off the hardware - more money than it does the app store.
  - abletonlive 5y ago
    So you're arguing that because apple makes a profit from the initial sale of the phone...they shouldn't also make a profit from the services they provide for that phone (such as maintaining an app store and the infrastructure for that app store)? That's a bold position to take. What makes you feel entitled to that? Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? I'm pretty confused about how you're justifying this argument. It seems to me that you think all developers have some kind of entitlement to make a profit off of Apple's ecosystem without Apple making a profit from an ecosystem they risked a lot to build, because Apple is already making a profit off the iPhone. Am I following that correctly?
    - aspenmayer 5y ago
      > Did apple ever sell iPhones as a one-and-done purchase? Yes, the original iPhone 2G. It didn’t even have App Store on launch version of iOS. In fact, Cydia, the original jailbreak app store, existed on iOS before the official App Store. Saurik can speak to any fees for paid apps featured on Cydia. I remember an SMS app that allowed reply from notifications that I bought through Cydia, but I forget the name, maybe biteSMS? Most apps were entirely free, and Cydia supports adding arbitrary repositories. So, arguably, the original app purchasing experience on iOS was free and open source. Apple and their App Store couldn’t compete, and thus the war against right to compute and jailbreaks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS/iPadOS)

ApolloFortyNine 5y ago

Good luck running a business where (in the US) you lose 50% of potential customers instantly, and those 50% will tell everyone else to use x because it's available on both platforms. It's really the 50% shouting on social media that hurts the most. Instead of maybe recommending your app, they will recommend one of your competitors that support both.

post_break 5y ago

How many options do you have for gas, water, or power where you live? If I don't like the $18 a month fee for my gas bill, before I use a single ccf of natural gas can I just not use it? If I don't like the app store fees can I just not use it? You see what I'm getting at?

endisneigh 5y ago
Silly comparison - natural gas prices are regulated, but furthermore you don’t make money from your natural gas payment inherently. You only pay Apple store fees if you make money. Your comparison is dumb. Charge more to your users and be done with it a all of your Apple competitors are bound by the same rule.
- post_break 5y ago
  If I make an app that Apple doesn't like, I can't put it on my iPhone. I literally cannot put my own apps on my phone. Or install apps from developers outside of the app store. I can do so on my computer, why not my phone. "well just switch to android" isn't a good excuse.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    You can make a web app that works on safari, which runs on iPhones. So your entire point is wrong. Do you think this site you’re on is originally an iPhone app?
    - post_break 5y ago
      Ahh yes, you want a native app on your phone? I can offer a website instead.