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> Anyone making software for the Xbox has to pay Microsoft. Why is this different? It's different because Apple sells and markets their hardware as general-pur

> Anyone making software for the Xbox has to pay Microsoft. Why is this different? It's different because Apple sells and markets their hardware as general-purpose computing devices. An Xbox is a gaming console and that's what it's sold and marketed as.

SllX 5y ago
To my continued disappointment, this is exactly how they have not marketed iPhones since the beginning.
- clusterfish 5y ago
  "A general purpose computer is a computer that is designed to be able to carry out many different tasks." "There's an app for that" Seems pretty straightforward that they did. Them doing their best to lock down the ecosystem for profit does not make the device non-general-purpose.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    There is literally no legal distinction whatsoever between general-purpose devices and non-general-purpose devices. I don't know where this legal myth on HN came from, but there's no law anywhere saying Apple has to be one or the other, or that marketing has anything to do with what a device should be allowed or not allowed to do, nor does the law define these terms anywhere.
    - clusterfish 5y ago
      Nobody's saying that this has anything to do with legality under current laws. Neither does whataboutism that this is usually in response to, for the record.
  - SllX 5y ago
    The part of the “general purpose computer” that Apple does not display in its iPhone marketing is the “computer” part including the original “there’s an app for that” commercial. Arguably also the “general purpose” part in that a general purpose computer will run any calculable task, and App Store + OS policies prevent this or at least make it difficult and the messaging around this also comes out of their crack marketing team. Feet to the fire, Apple would probably call iPhones pachinko machines before they ever called them general purpose computers in any part of their marketing.
30204604 5y ago
>Apple sells and markets their hardware as general-purpose computing devices Could you point to what makes you think this? As well, are there any court rulings that indicate this matters when it comes to this issue?
- nirvdrum 5y ago
  Apple ran an ad campaign with the message "Your next computer is not a computer": https://youtu.be/awTP7IUY3uo https://youtu.be/awTP7IUY3uo
  - scarface74 5y ago
    So you would be okay if Apple just opened up the App Store for iPads?
    - nirvdrum 5y ago
      I think it was pretty evident that computers were going to continue to get smaller, handheld, wearable, what have you. Apple didn't invent the space, they just made the product that got people to adopt the new form factor en masse. That's no small thing. But, I don't think they deserve near full control and a 30% tax on all revenue transacted on that form factor as a result. We wouldn't have tolerated it if Microsoft had done it on the desktop environment. We wouldn't have tolerated if Microsoft forced all purchases through their platform. We've backed ourselves into a weird spot. It's essentially impossible for a new platform to develop in the computing space. Google did everything it could to kill off Windows mobile. Mozilla took a crack at it and failed. There's an illusion of choice, but it's quite difficult to get by without an Android or iPhone. That became very evident to me with the pandemic. Virtual doctor visits, check-ins, mobile passports, and so required a device running one of Android or iOS/iPadOS. My wife isn't fond of smart phones, but we had to get her an iPhone to participate in society. Companies don't want to support web sites for mobile and Apple's support for PWAs is pretty bad, forcing you back into their app ecosystem. Moreover, switching platforms is quite expensive and often impractical, in no small part because your purchases are bound to a particular platform (desktop licenses, on the other hand, often work across operating systems or charge a nominal fee to have licenses for macOS and Windows). That's a very long-winded way of saying, sure let's start with opening up the App Store for iPads. I think we should do it for phones, too, but I'll take what I can get. For many people, their phone is their "computer" these days as well and as I said, I think that result was inevitable. We can argue about whether smart phones are general computing devices, but I'd argue the only reason they're not as "general" as desktops is because Apple won't allow them to be. Microsoft and Samsung both had interesting technologies (Continuum and Dex, respectively) that could turn your phone into a portable desktop that showed promise for what the space could be. But, people make do with the restrictions placed on them, if for no other reason than switching is expensive and hard. Regardless, smart phones a completely different class of device than video game consoles. People run many of the same tasks on phones & tablets that they would on a laptop. Despite that, video game consoles are more open. I can buy video games from a dozen different stores, get them on a secondary market, and I can lend them out to people. But, let's open up the consoles too if that's what's holding us back with Apple and Google.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pininja 5y ago
What do I know, but I see Xbox as more than a gaming machine with its steaming and web browsing features, and iOS as less than general-purpose since I can’t execute code outside of a very narrow and curated api. OSX is general purpose, no doubt, but I’m not sure it’s relevant since I can basically run whatever I can compile.
scarface74 5y ago
Apple sells a device that is called an iPhone how is it any more general purpose than a powerful computer sold as a game console? Heck most of Apple’s App Store revenue comes from games.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Even from the beginning it was more than a simple phone. It was at least a phone, an iPod, and a breakthrough internet communications device. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnrJzXM7a6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnrJzXM7a6o
  - scarface74 5y ago
    But it didn’t have an App Store…. You could always “sideload music”

SllX 5y ago

To my continued disappointment, this is exactly how they have not marketed iPhones since the beginning.

clusterfish 5y ago
"A general purpose computer is a computer that is designed to be able to carry out many different tasks." "There's an app for that" Seems pretty straightforward that they did. Them doing their best to lock down the ecosystem for profit does not make the device non-general-purpose.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  There is literally no legal distinction whatsoever between general-purpose devices and non-general-purpose devices. I don't know where this legal myth on HN came from, but there's no law anywhere saying Apple has to be one or the other, or that marketing has anything to do with what a device should be allowed or not allowed to do, nor does the law define these terms anywhere.
  - clusterfish 5y ago
    Nobody's saying that this has anything to do with legality under current laws. Neither does whataboutism that this is usually in response to, for the record.
- SllX 5y ago
  The part of the “general purpose computer” that Apple does not display in its iPhone marketing is the “computer” part including the original “there’s an app for that” commercial. Arguably also the “general purpose” part in that a general purpose computer will run any calculable task, and App Store + OS policies prevent this or at least make it difficult and the messaging around this also comes out of their crack marketing team. Feet to the fire, Apple would probably call iPhones pachinko machines before they ever called them general purpose computers in any part of their marketing.

30204604 5y ago

>Apple sells and markets their hardware as general-purpose computing devices Could you point to what makes you think this? As well, are there any court rulings that indicate this matters when it comes to this issue?

nirvdrum 5y ago
Apple ran an ad campaign with the message "Your next computer is not a computer": https://youtu.be/awTP7IUY3uo https://youtu.be/awTP7IUY3uo
- scarface74 5y ago
  So you would be okay if Apple just opened up the App Store for iPads?
  - nirvdrum 5y ago
    I think it was pretty evident that computers were going to continue to get smaller, handheld, wearable, what have you. Apple didn't invent the space, they just made the product that got people to adopt the new form factor en masse. That's no small thing. But, I don't think they deserve near full control and a 30% tax on all revenue transacted on that form factor as a result. We wouldn't have tolerated it if Microsoft had done it on the desktop environment. We wouldn't have tolerated if Microsoft forced all purchases through their platform. We've backed ourselves into a weird spot. It's essentially impossible for a new platform to develop in the computing space. Google did everything it could to kill off Windows mobile. Mozilla took a crack at it and failed. There's an illusion of choice, but it's quite difficult to get by without an Android or iPhone. That became very evident to me with the pandemic. Virtual doctor visits, check-ins, mobile passports, and so required a device running one of Android or iOS/iPadOS. My wife isn't fond of smart phones, but we had to get her an iPhone to participate in society. Companies don't want to support web sites for mobile and Apple's support for PWAs is pretty bad, forcing you back into their app ecosystem. Moreover, switching platforms is quite expensive and often impractical, in no small part because your purchases are bound to a particular platform (desktop licenses, on the other hand, often work across operating systems or charge a nominal fee to have licenses for macOS and Windows). That's a very long-winded way of saying, sure let's start with opening up the App Store for iPads. I think we should do it for phones, too, but I'll take what I can get. For many people, their phone is their "computer" these days as well and as I said, I think that result was inevitable. We can argue about whether smart phones are general computing devices, but I'd argue the only reason they're not as "general" as desktops is because Apple won't allow them to be. Microsoft and Samsung both had interesting technologies (Continuum and Dex, respectively) that could turn your phone into a portable desktop that showed promise for what the space could be. But, people make do with the restrictions placed on them, if for no other reason than switching is expensive and hard. Regardless, smart phones a completely different class of device than video game consoles. People run many of the same tasks on phones & tablets that they would on a laptop. Despite that, video game consoles are more open. I can buy video games from a dozen different stores, get them on a secondary market, and I can lend them out to people. But, let's open up the consoles too if that's what's holding us back with Apple and Google.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pininja 5y ago

What do I know, but I see Xbox as more than a gaming machine with its steaming and web browsing features, and iOS as less than general-purpose since I can’t execute code outside of a very narrow and curated api. OSX is general purpose, no doubt, but I’m not sure it’s relevant since I can basically run whatever I can compile.

scarface74 5y ago

Apple sells a device that is called an iPhone how is it any more general purpose than a powerful computer sold as a game console? Heck most of Apple’s App Store revenue comes from games.

Apocryphon 5y ago
Even from the beginning it was more than a simple phone. It was at least a phone, an iPod, and a breakthrough internet communications device. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnrJzXM7a6o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnrJzXM7a6o
- scarface74 5y ago
  But it didn’t have an App Store…. You could always “sideload music”