3 ms·

This is such a non-sequitur. I can't tell if you're referring to people choosing not to be conscious (I doubt that's possible) or choosing not to ponder on it (

by psyc 5y ago

This is such a non-sequitur. I can't tell if you're referring to people choosing not to be conscious (I doubt that's possible) or choosing not to ponder on it (I don't think that's relevant). If people don't want to think about it, that's easily avoided. What we're talking about is people expending serious thought, "tying themselves in knots" as you say, to write essays and sometimes tomes dissuading others from pondering it either because "there's no hard problem" or "it's not productive."

ncmncm 5y ago
I am talking about choosing to tie yourself in knots and thereby preventing any further progress toward understanding what you are talking about. You could also choose not to tie yourself in knots, and then you would not be blocked, and could begin to make sense.
- psyc 5y ago
  That makes more sense, thanks. But philosophers of mind, neuroscientists, cognitive scientists, and all could just as well pursue other lines of inquiry without protesting too much that there's no hard problem.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    If you think there is a hard problem, it is on you to articulate one. Thus far I have not encountered one that does not depend on undefined words or circular arguments, i.e. knots.
    - rytill 5y ago
      Do you think there is such a thing as objective morality? Not just human ethics, or social norms or whatever, but that some things that occur are "better" than other things in some important sense. Or maybe, that certain actions are "good" and others are "bad"? Like for instance, the experience a human would have when relaxing in a hot tub with their friends, is "better" in some important, real sense compared to the experience of dying in a trench in WWI? If not, I probably can't convince you that there is a hard problem having to do with consciousness where we'd benefit from knowing all the answers. But if so, I could give it a try.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        There are certainly things I like better than other things. There is probably a fair bit of overlap with what you like, but also certain to be differences. Where they differ, am I right, or you? If one of us is not wrong, then one is not objectively better. A system for understanding consciousness that depends on objective merit will face very stiff competition from those that don't.
        rytill 5y ago
        Wouldn’t you say the experience of “being you” or “being me” would be part of the system of how consciousness works? And therefore, whether you like something or I like something, it’s part of the happening of consciousness. Maybe “you like the experience of drinking tea” is a totally compatible statement with “I don’t like the experience of drinking tea” in an objective sense. I would say it’s not that consciousness depends on objective merit, but that it could be the other way around.

by psyc 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago

I am talking about choosing to tie yourself in knots and thereby preventing any further progress toward understanding what you are talking about. You could also choose not to tie yourself in knots, and then you would not be blocked, and could begin to make sense.

psyc 5y ago
That makes more sense, thanks. But philosophers of mind, neuroscientists, cognitive scientists, and all could just as well pursue other lines of inquiry without protesting too much that there's no hard problem.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  If you think there is a hard problem, it is on you to articulate one. Thus far I have not encountered one that does not depend on undefined words or circular arguments, i.e. knots.
  - rytill 5y ago
    Do you think there is such a thing as objective morality? Not just human ethics, or social norms or whatever, but that some things that occur are "better" than other things in some important sense. Or maybe, that certain actions are "good" and others are "bad"? Like for instance, the experience a human would have when relaxing in a hot tub with their friends, is "better" in some important, real sense compared to the experience of dying in a trench in WWI? If not, I probably can't convince you that there is a hard problem having to do with consciousness where we'd benefit from knowing all the answers. But if so, I could give it a try.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      There are certainly things I like better than other things. There is probably a fair bit of overlap with what you like, but also certain to be differences. Where they differ, am I right, or you? If one of us is not wrong, then one is not objectively better. A system for understanding consciousness that depends on objective merit will face very stiff competition from those that don't.
      - rytill 5y ago
        Wouldn’t you say the experience of “being you” or “being me” would be part of the system of how consciousness works? And therefore, whether you like something or I like something, it’s part of the happening of consciousness. Maybe “you like the experience of drinking tea” is a totally compatible statement with “I don’t like the experience of drinking tea” in an objective sense. I would say it’s not that consciousness depends on objective merit, but that it could be the other way around.