6 ms·

Can be all valid points, but then who would want to run around with $20k in their pocket on a vacation, for example (paperwork for crossing borders aside)? How

Can be all valid points, but then who would want to run around with $20k in their pocket on a vacation, for example (paperwork for crossing borders aside)? How frequent are these types of frauds, e.g., by merchants/terminals? Doesn't seem to be a thing around where I live - is it a US thing?

notch656a 5y ago
Me. I've been on vacation with [ redacted ] in my pocket in a country where the average wage was $3500/yr, so about [ redacted ] years wages. And no I wasn't in some upper-class compound, I was hanging out in slums where $20 is worth killing someone. The equivalent to carrying [ redacted ] or so in US. It made me feel great that some asshole in government couldn't cowardly seize my account or block a transaction, instead they'd have to personally kill me to take the money. >f frauds, e.g., by merchants/terminals? Pretty common. Virtually everyone I know has been defrauded by CC or debit card at least once. When it happened to me my bank dragged me through a months long process after which they refused to refund the fraud, essentially accusing me myself of lying, and ultimately they even shut down my checking account. For this reason I've basically divested from keeping cash in banks, now that I've learned the fraud protection is a farce and the fed is going to inflate it to hell anyway.
- RandomLensman 5y ago
  So you felt good about someone in the streets potentially killing you for the money but the government would need too? Maybe I am just not worried enough about my government.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    I felt great no one could cowardly seize my account via some court order, but instead they'd have to kill me in the streets. If thieves are willing to kill you in the streets anyway, it doesn't much matter whether you have the money on you or not -- they'll just ransom you or kill you because you're broke. --------- >Well, actually, they could get a court order to seize whatever is in your pockets while some burly men hold you down. If people are going to come kill me in the street then come let it happen. Better than cowardly seizing it behind my back via locking a number in a database. And in the third world, it's typically a lot easier to find accounts than it is people. I can't say I know what would happen, I've only been attempted robbed at gunpoint once. I wish I could say I kicked their ass, but all I managed to do was hurt them enough that we stalemated and they went off to find some other victim.
    - RandomLensman 5y ago
      Well, actually, they could get a court order to seize whatever is in your pockets while some burly men hold you down.
      - joe5150 5y ago
        no court order needed! there are plenty of places where police can and will just take your money (always with impunity and sometimes even with some degree of legitimate warrant.) I'd call "carrying thousands in cash around the world" a poor strategy for keeping the government's hands off your money.
        danaris 5y ago
        ....Including the US. See: Civil Asset Forfeiture.
        notch656a 5y ago
        And nothing makes civil asset forfeiture easier than keeping your money in a domestic bank that the government knows exactly how much, where, and how to seize at any moment. Asset forfeiture is literally the worst argument for the banking system and debit cards over cash.
        jjeaff 5y ago
        I don't think they can use civil asset forfeiture for a bank account. It can be locked up for a long time, but even that requires some sort of court order. Now, $10k in a suitcase, that now belongs to the police precinct unless you can sue and prove your cash is innocent.
        notch656a 5y ago
        > I don't think they can use civil asset forfeiture for a bank account. False [0]. [0] https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/seize-first-question-later.pdf https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/seize-first-questi... 'Federal civil forfeiture laws give the Internal Revenue Service the power to clean out bank accounts without charging their owners with any crime. [ goes on to give many examples of bank accounts subjected to civil asset forfeiture ]'
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  "they'd have to personally kill me to take the money" I mean the cops could just pull you over and take it. Unless you were willing to make the cops kill you over $9,800? I think you are confusing state sponsored violence and street violence. The state can always get you, unfortunately. Crypto does try and address this, to varying degrees of success.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    [ redacted ]
    - wonderwonder 5y ago
      I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I was actually on your side. I'm saying the state works to take what you have and if they want it they will take it. I'm agreeing that they use banks, etc. to keep track of you and tax / seize what they want. " I'm not much interested in being baited (whether intentionally or not) into answering this kind of legally precarious question about it being MY fault that I 'made' someone hurt me." Really not trying to bait you here at all. Seems like we have a communication issue, maybe my fault. all the best.
- anamax 5y ago
  Never have obligations (loans, credit cards, etc.) and assets at the same institution. Neither side can resist the temptation to use the other side to "resolve" disputes.

notch656a 5y ago

Me. I've been on vacation with [ redacted ] in my pocket in a country where the average wage was $3500/yr, so about [ redacted ] years wages. And no I wasn't in some upper-class compound, I was hanging out in slums where $20 is worth killing someone. The equivalent to carrying [ redacted ] or so in US. It made me feel great that some asshole in government couldn't cowardly seize my account or block a transaction, instead they'd have to personally kill me to take the money. >f frauds, e.g., by merchants/terminals? Pretty common. Virtually everyone I know has been defrauded by CC or debit card at least once. When it happened to me my bank dragged me through a months long process after which they refused to refund the fraud, essentially accusing me myself of lying, and ultimately they even shut down my checking account. For this reason I've basically divested from keeping cash in banks, now that I've learned the fraud protection is a farce and the fed is going to inflate it to hell anyway.

RandomLensman 5y ago
So you felt good about someone in the streets potentially killing you for the money but the government would need too? Maybe I am just not worried enough about my government.
- notch656a 5y ago
  I felt great no one could cowardly seize my account via some court order, but instead they'd have to kill me in the streets. If thieves are willing to kill you in the streets anyway, it doesn't much matter whether you have the money on you or not -- they'll just ransom you or kill you because you're broke. --------- >Well, actually, they could get a court order to seize whatever is in your pockets while some burly men hold you down. If people are going to come kill me in the street then come let it happen. Better than cowardly seizing it behind my back via locking a number in a database. And in the third world, it's typically a lot easier to find accounts than it is people. I can't say I know what would happen, I've only been attempted robbed at gunpoint once. I wish I could say I kicked their ass, but all I managed to do was hurt them enough that we stalemated and they went off to find some other victim.
  - RandomLensman 5y ago
    Well, actually, they could get a court order to seize whatever is in your pockets while some burly men hold you down.
    - joe5150 5y ago
      no court order needed! there are plenty of places where police can and will just take your money (always with impunity and sometimes even with some degree of legitimate warrant.) I'd call "carrying thousands in cash around the world" a poor strategy for keeping the government's hands off your money.
      - danaris 5y ago
        ....Including the US. See: Civil Asset Forfeiture.
        notch656a 5y ago
        And nothing makes civil asset forfeiture easier than keeping your money in a domestic bank that the government knows exactly how much, where, and how to seize at any moment. Asset forfeiture is literally the worst argument for the banking system and debit cards over cash.
        jjeaff 5y ago
        I don't think they can use civil asset forfeiture for a bank account. It can be locked up for a long time, but even that requires some sort of court order. Now, $10k in a suitcase, that now belongs to the police precinct unless you can sue and prove your cash is innocent.
        notch656a 5y ago
        > I don't think they can use civil asset forfeiture for a bank account. False [0]. [0] https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/seize-first-question-later.pdf https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/seize-first-questi... 'Federal civil forfeiture laws give the Internal Revenue Service the power to clean out bank accounts without charging their owners with any crime. [ goes on to give many examples of bank accounts subjected to civil asset forfeiture ]'
wonderwonder 5y ago
"they'd have to personally kill me to take the money" I mean the cops could just pull you over and take it. Unless you were willing to make the cops kill you over $9,800? I think you are confusing state sponsored violence and street violence. The state can always get you, unfortunately. Crypto does try and address this, to varying degrees of success.
- notch656a 5y ago
  [ redacted ]
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I was actually on your side. I'm saying the state works to take what you have and if they want it they will take it. I'm agreeing that they use banks, etc. to keep track of you and tax / seize what they want. " I'm not much interested in being baited (whether intentionally or not) into answering this kind of legally precarious question about it being MY fault that I 'made' someone hurt me." Really not trying to bait you here at all. Seems like we have a communication issue, maybe my fault. all the best.
anamax 5y ago
Never have obligations (loans, credit cards, etc.) and assets at the same institution. Neither side can resist the temptation to use the other side to "resolve" disputes.