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I think Ember was a lot closer to a complete framework. I do believe that that's also why it didn't gain as much popularity. The learning curve was a lot steepe

I think Ember was a lot closer to a complete framework. I do believe that that's also why it didn't gain as much popularity. The learning curve was a lot steeper than for React or Angular. You won't run into the problems with the slimmer libraries till later and at that point you understand them and "just" learn the new thing, Redux or wherever you are including now. All along the way it feels smooth, but you end up with some more complicated, glued together whole. With a larger framework you might end up with something less complex and cleaner in the end. I think on the backend we historically have had more complex problems sooner. You gotta connect to some database, serve multiple pages, track some context along, render views or API responses. It's much easier to anticipate the need for a framework or solutions to these problems sooner.

ClayShentrup 5y ago
This, 100% this this this this this.
eloisius 5y ago
I built a product and we bet on Ember back when it, angular and react all looked like top choices. I’d say one of the biggest failures was that it didn’t provide clean upgrades We got stuck with 3.something and no clear path forward. Second, it wanted everything to be Emberized. I forget what exactly it was, but we struggled to wrap other tools in service containers so that they could be injected into our code. I think it was probably Google JS APIs like Maps, which at the time wanted you to load the toolkit their way. Ember-data probably was the biggest mistake to adopt. The amount of time I spent trying to fool some outdated JSON serializer in Rails into embedding something the way ember data wanted was a huge waste. The only other JS I’ve used seriously is Backbone, and once I was waste deep in ember I had major regrets that I didn’t choose it instead.
- holler 5y ago
  I agree ember had issues in the past, but it's come a long way and the latest version Octane/4.0 is pretty solid. For anyone curious linkedin.com is a massive ember.js app and they're big contributors to the project.
k__ 5y ago
Remix feels a bit like Ember routing, but with SSR and React.
- Oddskar 5y ago
  I think almost all modern SPA routers took a lot of lessons from the Ember router to be fair.
  - k__ 5y ago
    I wish! While I liked the React approach to UI modularization much more than that convulted MVC interpretation Ember had, Ember's routing was quite awesome, and I missed it switching to React.
heavenlyblue 5y ago
> You won't run into the problems with the slimmer libraries till later and at that point you understand them and "just" learn the new thing, No that’s only true for “junior-based development” where every greenfield project is given to juniors with an assumption that “they will learn on the job”. So they start with a simple framework and learn “while the requirement are getting more complex”. What in fact happens is that the project was severely under-specified by the stakeholders and the juniors had “no idea that would be needed”.

ClayShentrup 5y ago

This, 100% this this this this this.

eloisius 5y ago

I built a product and we bet on Ember back when it, angular and react all looked like top choices. I’d say one of the biggest failures was that it didn’t provide clean upgrades We got stuck with 3.something and no clear path forward. Second, it wanted everything to be Emberized. I forget what exactly it was, but we struggled to wrap other tools in service containers so that they could be injected into our code. I think it was probably Google JS APIs like Maps, which at the time wanted you to load the toolkit their way. Ember-data probably was the biggest mistake to adopt. The amount of time I spent trying to fool some outdated JSON serializer in Rails into embedding something the way ember data wanted was a huge waste. The only other JS I’ve used seriously is Backbone, and once I was waste deep in ember I had major regrets that I didn’t choose it instead.

holler 5y ago
I agree ember had issues in the past, but it's come a long way and the latest version Octane/4.0 is pretty solid. For anyone curious linkedin.com is a massive ember.js app and they're big contributors to the project.

k__ 5y ago

Remix feels a bit like Ember routing, but with SSR and React.

Oddskar 5y ago
I think almost all modern SPA routers took a lot of lessons from the Ember router to be fair.
- k__ 5y ago
  I wish! While I liked the React approach to UI modularization much more than that convulted MVC interpretation Ember had, Ember's routing was quite awesome, and I missed it switching to React.

heavenlyblue 5y ago

> You won't run into the problems with the slimmer libraries till later and at that point you understand them and "just" learn the new thing, No that’s only true for “junior-based development” where every greenfield project is given to juniors with an assumption that “they will learn on the job”. So they start with a simple framework and learn “while the requirement are getting more complex”. What in fact happens is that the project was severely under-specified by the stakeholders and the juniors had “no idea that would be needed”.