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I disagree. The problem was never about the ads. It was about the fact that ads were forced, privacy-invasive (due to customization) and generally were terrib

I disagree. The problem was never about the ads. It was about the fact that ads were forced, privacy-invasive (due to customization) and generally were terrible overall (think malware/crypto mining risks, terrible UX - think annoyingly flashy gifs, or those gigantic banners in the middle of a scenic drive), not to mention poorly regulated, leading to lots of "double your money/phallus in 3 days!" type of scams. There are a few "fair" advertising companies (the name slips me) that I am perfectly happy with. A static, discreet ad need not be bad. Several ads are absolute works of art and passion. The vast majority are not. What we have is (techy) folks wanting to not have a shitty experience, and the average privacy-conscious user not wanting tracking. Companies do not respect (or care enough) for these which is why you have an anti-ad point of view. (I should probably write about this.)

FabHK 5y ago
Exactly. In the old world, ads were attached to matching content, which gave an incentive to produce insightful pertinent content (and develop a reputation in a certain content subject area). Those ads were not much of a problem. Today, the ad industry tracks the user, and ads are attached to matching user interest, which gives an incentive to produce arbitrary, but addictive content, with most of the benefit accruing to the ad oligopolies instead of the content producers.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  also, while ads were certainly dispersed through magazines and the like, a huge chunk of them were really just in the back and not with the main stuff.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    Also, it was unlikely you'd see the same set of five ads on every page of every article. Because such a thing would not just be pointless, but counterproductive. Today's statistically-driven advertising does not relate to the context and thus has no bridge for engagement. We are all desensitized to them, so they just have to block content, flash more incessantly, and make the dismiss click box smaller (or just start putting fake dismiss boxes to trick people into more engagement). I think the scammy/dark side of advertising is driven by the cost of impressions being so low. This is because of the pricing disparities allowed by the advertising broker tracking attributions rather than the business themselves. Legitimate products suffer as a result, similar to the effect of spam on email.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      This is a good point. I don't need to see the same GoDaddy or St. Jude's ad 200+ times a week.
ksec 5y ago
>I disagree. I dont think we disagree. Like I wrote in another post, most on HN couldn't understand the difference between placement ad on Google Search Engine and Google Ads Network. And suggested we should ban all "tracking ads". And later all ads. I explicitly ask them and suggest what you just wrote. That there could be good ads, and they, by majority disagree. This isn't just on HN, it is pretty much across the whole tech industry. Benedict Evans wrote a lot about this [1] and on Twitter. We even went to ask people offline to make sure we are not in an online bubble. But so far the results suggest otherwise. Especially with Tracking [2]. [1] https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2021/5/13/apples-ads-music https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2021/5/13/apples-ads... [2] https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1387414650443141120?s=20&t=ixMb2Y75a5c_80qxQltGzg https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1387414650443141120...
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  > This single comment contains many of the contrarian view against HN. It is nice we have these real world stories on HN to balance the ideological fight against ads, where All Ads are evil. I still don't understand your point. The only reason Facebook's ability to properly attribute went down drastically is specifically because of the iOS privacy changes that require user opt in to track across different sites. Fine, I don't doubt there were other HN commenters who were arguing different meanings of "tracking", but that's all a moot point. In this instance, we know exactly why Facebook's ad effectiveness went down - it went down because they could no longer track all your interactions across the majority of the web. Tough shit.
  - oconnore 5y ago
    Why does ability to attribute an ad depend on the ability to track individuals? IIUC, you can do attribution with a very basic ad: <a href="website.com/ad-34" ping="fb.com/my-product/ad-34/ping"><img src="fb.com/my-product/ad-34/img.jpeg" /> Come buy my product, you'll love it!</a> Then you sum up all the "/ad-34" hits, and figure out how many of those user sessions (which are now on your own site -- single domain, but perhaps leveraging a script supplied by the ad network) went and actually bought something. The ad network can correlate those sessions with the "ping" it receives to determine clicks vs. conversions.
kmlx 5y ago
> and the average privacy-conscious user not wanting tracking. zero traction in the real world for this. people will click on whatever you show them.
mercutio2 5y ago
Oh, anti advertising maximalists certainly exist! I'm certainly not in the majority, but if I could live in a world where: A) Advertising was considered so extremely gauche that no one did it B) No revenue from advertising existed C) Ad-supported services went away I would be a very happy man.
- clarge1120 5y ago
  So would I, but I’d also not have a job, or at least make a lot less income. Without marketing, advertising and sales, there is very little economic activity. It’s like the old adage: this job would be great it weren’t for those pesky customers.

FabHK 5y ago

Exactly. In the old world, ads were attached to matching content, which gave an incentive to produce insightful pertinent content (and develop a reputation in a certain content subject area). Those ads were not much of a problem. Today, the ad industry tracks the user, and ads are attached to matching user interest, which gives an incentive to produce arbitrary, but addictive content, with most of the benefit accruing to the ad oligopolies instead of the content producers.

bobthepanda 5y ago
also, while ads were certainly dispersed through magazines and the like, a huge chunk of them were really just in the back and not with the main stuff.
- dwaite 5y ago
  Also, it was unlikely you'd see the same set of five ads on every page of every article. Because such a thing would not just be pointless, but counterproductive. Today's statistically-driven advertising does not relate to the context and thus has no bridge for engagement. We are all desensitized to them, so they just have to block content, flash more incessantly, and make the dismiss click box smaller (or just start putting fake dismiss boxes to trick people into more engagement). I think the scammy/dark side of advertising is driven by the cost of impressions being so low. This is because of the pricing disparities allowed by the advertising broker tracking attributions rather than the business themselves. Legitimate products suffer as a result, similar to the effect of spam on email.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    This is a good point. I don't need to see the same GoDaddy or St. Jude's ad 200+ times a week.

ksec 5y ago

>I disagree. I dont think we disagree. Like I wrote in another post, most on HN couldn't understand the difference between placement ad on Google Search Engine and Google Ads Network. And suggested we should ban all "tracking ads". And later all ads. I explicitly ask them and suggest what you just wrote. That there could be good ads, and they, by majority disagree. This isn't just on HN, it is pretty much across the whole tech industry. Benedict Evans wrote a lot about this [1] and on Twitter. We even went to ask people offline to make sure we are not in an online bubble. But so far the results suggest otherwise. Especially with Tracking [2]. [1] https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2021/5/13/apples-ads-music https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2021/5/13/apples-ads... [2] https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1387414650443141120?s=20&t=ixMb2Y75a5c_80qxQltGzg https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1387414650443141120...

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
> This single comment contains many of the contrarian view against HN. It is nice we have these real world stories on HN to balance the ideological fight against ads, where All Ads are evil. I still don't understand your point. The only reason Facebook's ability to properly attribute went down drastically is specifically because of the iOS privacy changes that require user opt in to track across different sites. Fine, I don't doubt there were other HN commenters who were arguing different meanings of "tracking", but that's all a moot point. In this instance, we know exactly why Facebook's ad effectiveness went down - it went down because they could no longer track all your interactions across the majority of the web. Tough shit.
- oconnore 5y ago
  Why does ability to attribute an ad depend on the ability to track individuals? IIUC, you can do attribution with a very basic ad: <a href="website.com/ad-34" ping="fb.com/my-product/ad-34/ping"><img src="fb.com/my-product/ad-34/img.jpeg" /> Come buy my product, you'll love it!</a> Then you sum up all the "/ad-34" hits, and figure out how many of those user sessions (which are now on your own site -- single domain, but perhaps leveraging a script supplied by the ad network) went and actually bought something. The ad network can correlate those sessions with the "ping" it receives to determine clicks vs. conversions.

kmlx 5y ago

> and the average privacy-conscious user not wanting tracking. zero traction in the real world for this. people will click on whatever you show them.

mercutio2 5y ago

Oh, anti advertising maximalists certainly exist! I'm certainly not in the majority, but if I could live in a world where: A) Advertising was considered so extremely gauche that no one did it B) No revenue from advertising existed C) Ad-supported services went away I would be a very happy man.

clarge1120 5y ago
So would I, but I’d also not have a job, or at least make a lot less income. Without marketing, advertising and sales, there is very little economic activity. It’s like the old adage: this job would be great it weren’t for those pesky customers.