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Maybe to take these one-by-one - Where does this end in societies governed by the rule of law? Who can decide to opt-out or in? - That can also be achieved by

Maybe to take these one-by-one - Where does this end in societies governed by the rule of law? Who can decide to opt-out or in? - That can also be achieved by mandating banks to offer accounts (as some countries have). So I put that down to a political failure. - Valid(ish). But also other stores of value exist and governments have many options for coercion, in the end, nothing will be safe. - Could be used like that, but so can normal money and incentives Generally, I'd say using crypto as fallback in broken political systems/societies relies on having at least somewhere working parts of society that can keep suppling/cooperating (or indeed from the outside).

kevinak 5y ago
Sure: > Where does this end in societies governed by the rule of law? Who can decide to opt-out or in? I think individuals themselves should decide what is and isn't OK to spend money on. In such a world you rely on law enforcement doing actual work instead of using vague KYC, AML and Terrorism laws that are extremely obtuse. Real criminals just use a middle man while regular citizens have to endure this insane regulatory environment without any benefit. KYC/AML is just a waste of time, energy and manpower. > That can also be achieved by mandating banks to offer accounts (as some countries have). So I put that down to a political failure. What if you don't have a functioning banking sector? Or even a functioning government? You're just supposed to accept that you're not going to be able to participate in a global society? > The ability for people in extreme situations to store value in something other than their governments currency. Think Lebanon, Argentina, Venezuela, Turkey, etc. Sure, but most (if not all) of those things can be taken from you. Bitcoin can not. Of course, there's always the $5 wrench attack but relative to other assets, Bitcoin is superior in this regard. Even if it's just slightly better than other assets it's a win. > Could be used like that, but so can normal money and incentives Yes, but Bitcoin mining is a natural free market incentive to this problem, incentives and money is not.
- RandomLensman 5y ago
  So I should be allowed to fund proper terrorist groups then? Saying that maybe KYC/AML/CFT etc. is disproportionate to its effects is one thing, but going the other way and having no control about who funds what could be outright enemies is certainly an extreme position. And if a country has no functioning government, no banking etc., i.e. it is broken, then the country or place needs fixing, not some magic crypto sprinkled on top (might alleviate the symptoms, but not the cause). I see this all the time as crypto point, but society building is so much more difficult than that. Once you are in a environment where physical violence is the norm, things are really different.

kevinak 5y ago

Sure: > Where does this end in societies governed by the rule of law? Who can decide to opt-out or in? I think individuals themselves should decide what is and isn't OK to spend money on. In such a world you rely on law enforcement doing actual work instead of using vague KYC, AML and Terrorism laws that are extremely obtuse. Real criminals just use a middle man while regular citizens have to endure this insane regulatory environment without any benefit. KYC/AML is just a waste of time, energy and manpower. > That can also be achieved by mandating banks to offer accounts (as some countries have). So I put that down to a political failure. What if you don't have a functioning banking sector? Or even a functioning government? You're just supposed to accept that you're not going to be able to participate in a global society? > The ability for people in extreme situations to store value in something other than their governments currency. Think Lebanon, Argentina, Venezuela, Turkey, etc. Sure, but most (if not all) of those things can be taken from you. Bitcoin can not. Of course, there's always the $5 wrench attack but relative to other assets, Bitcoin is superior in this regard. Even if it's just slightly better than other assets it's a win. > Could be used like that, but so can normal money and incentives Yes, but Bitcoin mining is a natural free market incentive to this problem, incentives and money is not.

RandomLensman 5y ago
So I should be allowed to fund proper terrorist groups then? Saying that maybe KYC/AML/CFT etc. is disproportionate to its effects is one thing, but going the other way and having no control about who funds what could be outright enemies is certainly an extreme position. And if a country has no functioning government, no banking etc., i.e. it is broken, then the country or place needs fixing, not some magic crypto sprinkled on top (might alleviate the symptoms, but not the cause). I see this all the time as crypto point, but society building is so much more difficult than that. Once you are in a environment where physical violence is the norm, things are really different.