5 ms·

"Not taking the vaccine isn't any more egoistic than smoking, being obese, driving a motorbike, eating unhealthy, not supplementing vitamin D or anything else t

"Not taking the vaccine isn't any more egoistic than smoking, being obese, driving a motorbike, eating unhealthy, not supplementing vitamin D or anything else that increases your risk of illness" I'm sorry but once again, hospitals aren't currently overrun by illnesses due to smokers, obese, etc. They are overrun by people with severe Covid cases, with significantly more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. "Not taking the vaccine also does not automatically translate into becoming hospitalized with severe Covid" Of course, it just tends to reduce the severity of covid cases. Which is the point, because, you remember, it reduces hospitalizations so that health services can remain functional? "This is also evidenced by my own and my wife's case: Two doses of pfizer, then infected by a person who was tripple-vaccinated and we both had symptomatic Covid that wasn't mild by any means." Why aren't you considering the possibility that your not-mild covid could have been worse if you weren't vaccinated? I don't see your case as an evidence for anything, really. [Edit: Apart from the fact that covid vaccines don't make one immune, especially with variants. The point was that they still help significantly with case severity]

hajile 5y ago
78% of people dying from COVID have at least 4 pre-existing conditions and one of those is almost always obesity. The people supposedly being blocked by COVID patients are largely people who have pre-existing conditions from smoking, eating unhealthily, not exercising, being obese, taking stupid risks, etc At best you have one stupid group blocking another stupid group.
- qsdf38100 5y ago
  Passing new laws to forbid smoking, eating too much, not doing enough exercised, etc. would be so much more restrictive, compared to taking few vaccine shots and wearing a mask in some places. Vaccines help reducing hospitalizations for all these groups at once, right?
  - ls15 5y ago
    So a vaccinated, fat, smoking and drinking motorcyclist does more for the health sector than a slim yoga practitioner and health food enthusiast who decides against vaccination? What could go wrong?
    - qsdf38100 5y ago
      So... I don't understand if you think there are too much restrictions due to covid, or not enough? what are you suggesting? Restrict eating, smoking, drinking, motorcycling, force people to exercise? Or are you suggesting that since we can't restrict all these things, we should restrict nothing? I still fail to see how 2 vaccine shots a year compares to restricting what you're allowed to eat, smoke, drink, drive, and force exercise.
      - ls15 5y ago
        Depends. If you want a social-credit-score-like system like in China, then more restrictions are great, because obviously once you implement restrictions, you also need to document them and make sure that everyone complies. If such a dystopia does not sound good, keep them to an absolute minimum.
  - hajile 5y ago
    If a person chooses not to be vaccinated, they have a tiny chance to go to the hospital (polls show that almost HALF of democrats believe 50% of covid patients are hospitalized when it's actually 1-5%). If a person is fat, there's a 100% guarantee that it will land them at the doctor for any number of complications. Furthermore, once COVID is dealt with, that person isn't going back to the hospital while the fat person will be going back over and over again. The tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars this costs are all foisted onto healthy people. Why should healthy people who worked hard to keep healthy be forced to pay for unhealthy people who lived a life of gluttony and sloth? Perhaps more directly to the point, all the food driving fatness could be going to kids dying of malnutrition in other parts of the world. I don't know about you, but I'd rather spend those hundreds of thousands of dollars to send that food overseas to keep kids from starving rather than paying for someone's eating addiction.
    - TheGRS 5y ago
      Attempts to solve obesity are met with the same objections around freedom of choice. And honestly any attempt to do anything about it would be so much more complicated than saying "get this shot", which is already fairly complicated to begin with.
    - qsdf38100 5y ago
      I don't know how to solve obesity, I'm not trying to. But back to the current situation, vaccines are a practical way to help keeping health services functional. It doesn't solve other health issues, and is much less restrictive that going after smoking, eating, alcohol, under-exercised people, etc. I'm not sure what are you suggesting. Applying all those restrictions? People are already barely accepting current restrictions. Or do you mean since we can't have all those restrictions, we must have none?
ls15 5y ago
> I'm sorry but once again, hospitals aren't currently overrun by illnesses due to smokers, obese, etc. They are overrun by people with severe Covid cases, with significantly more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. In my country, Germany, the hospitals are not overrun because of Covid. The Covid share of patients at the top of the most deadly wave was 5%. What actually happens in the health care sector is massive mismanagement. Not a good reason to mandate vaccines, I think. Instead invest in the healthcare sector and pay the workers appropriately. > Why aren't you considering the possibility that your not-mild covid could have been worse if you weren't vaccinated? Why aren't you considering that I did consider that and came to the conclusion that there is no way in the world to tell if that is true. Omicron was said to be generally milder after all. What did intensely lower the severity of the disease without the slightest doubt from my side was a massive vitamin and minerals booster package that we started a few days in. I know, n=2, so nobody will believe me, but for those who are interested and are in a similar situation: Vit B(complex), C, D, K2, magnesium, zink, potassium, also melatonine for sleeping and R-alpha-lipoic acid and Q10 against brain fog and neurologic symptoms, as well as probiotics for general vitality and against the Omicron constipation.
- qsdf38100 5y ago
  "What did intensely lower the severity of the disease without the slightest doubt from my side". Hmmm I don't see how you can be so sure that something you took is the cause for getting better. You can get better for a lot of reasons, one being your immune system winning the battle on its own. It's a common misconception that getting better after taking some medicine proves it works. To prove a medicine works, we have to go through those double-blind clinical trials. Anyway, you're suggesting that instead of vaccines, omicron could be dealt with with Vit B(complex), C, D, K2, magnesium, zink, potassium, melatonine, R-alpha-lipoic acid, Q10, and probiotics. That sounds a lot of things compared to 1 or 2 vaccine shots per years. So you say you prefer a combination of lots of medicines with potential side effects, plus it's hard to know how they could interfere. Sounds weird if your reason for not wanting vaccine is the side effects, as there is a lot of data for the vaccine thanks to clinical trials, as opposed to custom combinations of vitamines, minerals, probiotics, and Q10? what's that? Sounds like you see anything coming "from the elites" as dangerous and dishonest, whereas anything coming from "the people", the "common sense" is reliable and safe. I guess these discussions are deeply about "trusting official institutions" vs "trusting random people claims". There's no convincing anyone if the premises are that the goal of official institutions is to conspire against the people for the benefit of the powerful. And even if it was true, 1) I'm not sure how getting people vaccinated benefits the powerful vs other medicines, 2) it doesn't mean random people claims are correct. It seems you'd believe anything as long as it's opposed to official claims about vaccines. It's a binary view: either one trusts official institutions and everything he say is wrong, either one is against official institutions claims and everything he say is right. I tend to trust official institutions more than random people, as it's easier to lie/be wrong when you're not accountable for anything.

hajile 5y ago

78% of people dying from COVID have at least 4 pre-existing conditions and one of those is almost always obesity. The people supposedly being blocked by COVID patients are largely people who have pre-existing conditions from smoking, eating unhealthily, not exercising, being obese, taking stupid risks, etc At best you have one stupid group blocking another stupid group.

qsdf38100 5y ago
Passing new laws to forbid smoking, eating too much, not doing enough exercised, etc. would be so much more restrictive, compared to taking few vaccine shots and wearing a mask in some places. Vaccines help reducing hospitalizations for all these groups at once, right?
- ls15 5y ago
  So a vaccinated, fat, smoking and drinking motorcyclist does more for the health sector than a slim yoga practitioner and health food enthusiast who decides against vaccination? What could go wrong?
  - qsdf38100 5y ago
    So... I don't understand if you think there are too much restrictions due to covid, or not enough? what are you suggesting? Restrict eating, smoking, drinking, motorcycling, force people to exercise? Or are you suggesting that since we can't restrict all these things, we should restrict nothing? I still fail to see how 2 vaccine shots a year compares to restricting what you're allowed to eat, smoke, drink, drive, and force exercise.
    - ls15 5y ago
      Depends. If you want a social-credit-score-like system like in China, then more restrictions are great, because obviously once you implement restrictions, you also need to document them and make sure that everyone complies. If such a dystopia does not sound good, keep them to an absolute minimum.
- hajile 5y ago
  If a person chooses not to be vaccinated, they have a tiny chance to go to the hospital (polls show that almost HALF of democrats believe 50% of covid patients are hospitalized when it's actually 1-5%). If a person is fat, there's a 100% guarantee that it will land them at the doctor for any number of complications. Furthermore, once COVID is dealt with, that person isn't going back to the hospital while the fat person will be going back over and over again. The tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars this costs are all foisted onto healthy people. Why should healthy people who worked hard to keep healthy be forced to pay for unhealthy people who lived a life of gluttony and sloth? Perhaps more directly to the point, all the food driving fatness could be going to kids dying of malnutrition in other parts of the world. I don't know about you, but I'd rather spend those hundreds of thousands of dollars to send that food overseas to keep kids from starving rather than paying for someone's eating addiction.
  - TheGRS 5y ago
    Attempts to solve obesity are met with the same objections around freedom of choice. And honestly any attempt to do anything about it would be so much more complicated than saying "get this shot", which is already fairly complicated to begin with.
  - qsdf38100 5y ago
    I don't know how to solve obesity, I'm not trying to. But back to the current situation, vaccines are a practical way to help keeping health services functional. It doesn't solve other health issues, and is much less restrictive that going after smoking, eating, alcohol, under-exercised people, etc. I'm not sure what are you suggesting. Applying all those restrictions? People are already barely accepting current restrictions. Or do you mean since we can't have all those restrictions, we must have none?

ls15 5y ago

> I'm sorry but once again, hospitals aren't currently overrun by illnesses due to smokers, obese, etc. They are overrun by people with severe Covid cases, with significantly more unvaccinated people than vaccinated people. In my country, Germany, the hospitals are not overrun because of Covid. The Covid share of patients at the top of the most deadly wave was 5%. What actually happens in the health care sector is massive mismanagement. Not a good reason to mandate vaccines, I think. Instead invest in the healthcare sector and pay the workers appropriately. > Why aren't you considering the possibility that your not-mild covid could have been worse if you weren't vaccinated? Why aren't you considering that I did consider that and came to the conclusion that there is no way in the world to tell if that is true. Omicron was said to be generally milder after all. What did intensely lower the severity of the disease without the slightest doubt from my side was a massive vitamin and minerals booster package that we started a few days in. I know, n=2, so nobody will believe me, but for those who are interested and are in a similar situation: Vit B(complex), C, D, K2, magnesium, zink, potassium, also melatonine for sleeping and R-alpha-lipoic acid and Q10 against brain fog and neurologic symptoms, as well as probiotics for general vitality and against the Omicron constipation.

qsdf38100 5y ago
"What did intensely lower the severity of the disease without the slightest doubt from my side". Hmmm I don't see how you can be so sure that something you took is the cause for getting better. You can get better for a lot of reasons, one being your immune system winning the battle on its own. It's a common misconception that getting better after taking some medicine proves it works. To prove a medicine works, we have to go through those double-blind clinical trials. Anyway, you're suggesting that instead of vaccines, omicron could be dealt with with Vit B(complex), C, D, K2, magnesium, zink, potassium, melatonine, R-alpha-lipoic acid, Q10, and probiotics. That sounds a lot of things compared to 1 or 2 vaccine shots per years. So you say you prefer a combination of lots of medicines with potential side effects, plus it's hard to know how they could interfere. Sounds weird if your reason for not wanting vaccine is the side effects, as there is a lot of data for the vaccine thanks to clinical trials, as opposed to custom combinations of vitamines, minerals, probiotics, and Q10? what's that? Sounds like you see anything coming "from the elites" as dangerous and dishonest, whereas anything coming from "the people", the "common sense" is reliable and safe. I guess these discussions are deeply about "trusting official institutions" vs "trusting random people claims". There's no convincing anyone if the premises are that the goal of official institutions is to conspire against the people for the benefit of the powerful. And even if it was true, 1) I'm not sure how getting people vaccinated benefits the powerful vs other medicines, 2) it doesn't mean random people claims are correct. It seems you'd believe anything as long as it's opposed to official claims about vaccines. It's a binary view: either one trusts official institutions and everything he say is wrong, either one is against official institutions claims and everything he say is right. I tend to trust official institutions more than random people, as it's easier to lie/be wrong when you're not accountable for anything.