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https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22399161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22399161 2 years ago, 57 comments Anyway, I wanted to ask: Why is it ugly? W

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22399161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22399161 2 years ago, 57 comments Anyway, I wanted to ask: Why is it ugly? What about it is? I found it beautiful and much better looking than most fonts I see on the web nowadays.

dsevil 5y ago
I couldn't think of a better word than "ugly". Maybe "weird" or "quirky"? Honestly I'm not sure of that whole sentence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
vanderZwan 5y ago
Some people dislike anything that vaguely reminds them of Comic Sans fonts I guess. Personally I think it resembles VAG Round a lot, which is a font fairly common in Germany (possibly because it was designed for Volkswagen)
- tokai 5y ago
  Oh I didn't even connect it to comic sans. It's very nice, but nothing overwhelmingly different from another grotesque font with rounded ends. CS is a script font and not a grotesque so thats annoying if that is really the reason to call it ugly.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    You realize that "grotesque" is often considered an English synonym for "ugly"? The entire style of font has been considered "ugly" for a lot longer than Comic Sans has existed. It's a form that's not often symmetrical or exact so it is an "odd" form and a lot of people historically have found "odd" to be "ugly". (Also, Comic Sans fits the definitions of both script fonts and grotesque fonts, so it is probably extremely subjective which bucket you prefer to define it.)
    - tokai 5y ago
      I dont understand why you think you little language lesson is relevant. As you write yourself the true (german) meaning of the term is strange. Laymen thought they were bizarre and maybe ugly. But for most other they were seen as very aesthetic from the onset. Which is why these new fonts absolutely dominated the fraktur fonts. The reaction to them was more about a culture shock than an aesthetic disapproval. It is a historic term and any interpretation were you call CS grotesk would be suspect.
      - WorldMaker 5y ago
        The etymology of the term is from Latin (for "hidden grotto"), and English inherited denotations (Dictionary meanings) both from German font usage and from French. I was pointing out the connotation (colloquial meaning) in English of "ugly" simply that it shows evidence for a long standing cultural bias. Enough of a long standing cultural bias that people may call them "ugly" simply out of "cultural habit" without examining where that bias came from or why they feel that way. I also subjectively think many of the grotesque fonts are quite pretty, and I like Comic Sans too, but if you are asking why people think they are "ugly", one of the reasons is "subconscious cultural bias" and the "language lesson" was pointing out deep evidence of that (at least in English speaking cultures).
    - egypturnash 5y ago
      "grotesque" is also a term of art in font circles for a certain kind of sans serif, which leads to endless confusion. "Look at that gorgeous grotesque" is a perfectly decent sentence for a designer to say.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  Many people don't know this font and yet it turns out spent some part of 16 years pressing their fingertips on it: https://jalopnik.com/see-if-you-can-spot-the-vw-connection-in-this-old-apple-1848401105 https://jalopnik.com/see-if-you-can-spot-the-vw-connection-i...
IgorPartola 5y ago
It makes me think of a 1970s carpeted office. Also of computers running Windows 95 in a local library that are infuriatingly slow and where right click is disabled in Internet Explorer.
CapsAdmin 5y ago
I thought that it's meant look imprecise which communicates that it's not final. similar idea and discussion from RoughViz: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21648968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21648968
- tasha0663 5y ago
  It doesn't look imprecise per se. These are just the letterforms you can get out of wood with a router. I'm curious why it's associated with blueprints, but I have no insight into the history of applying type to blueprints. EDIT: to answer my own question, it has to do with the scribing device used for Leroy letters. One of which was used to source this font. Nice description of how it was used here https://kleinletters.com/Blog/leroy-lettering-by-jim-and-margaret-wroten/ https://kleinletters.com/Blog/leroy-lettering-by-jim-and-mar...
yuubi 5y ago
Letter shapes usually have curves a bit more complicated (in the sense of "how many parameters do I have to write down to reproduce it?") than this typeface. It feels like it's made of straight segments and ellipses, and all the strokes are uniform width and have round ends. Also, the 'a' and 't' look like the kindergarten versions instead of the more usual two-story 'a' and 't' with some sort of curve at the bottom. Most of this is almost certainly driven by the context this typeface was designed for. The simple shapes probably come from usability considerations for the lettering machine: the user had to trace each stroke in the template by hand. The uniform stroke weight and rounded ends come from how the engraving tool worked: basically a drill bit you drag sideways. The curves are probably that way because there was a fashion for "modern" shapes a while back, which meant roughly "describable with a simple formula and few parameters" We're accustomed to typefaces that were designed for use in movable type, where variable stroke weights and end shapes are basically free.
- Semaphor 5y ago
  Interesting, that might be it. I already dislike serif fonts because I find they have too much complexity. So the simplicity of this font might be what draws me to it and is disliked by others. I also do enjoy the rounded ends.

dsevil 5y ago

I couldn't think of a better word than "ugly". Maybe "weird" or "quirky"? Honestly I'm not sure of that whole sentence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

vanderZwan 5y ago

Some people dislike anything that vaguely reminds them of Comic Sans fonts I guess. Personally I think it resembles VAG Round a lot, which is a font fairly common in Germany (possibly because it was designed for Volkswagen)

tokai 5y ago
Oh I didn't even connect it to comic sans. It's very nice, but nothing overwhelmingly different from another grotesque font with rounded ends. CS is a script font and not a grotesque so thats annoying if that is really the reason to call it ugly.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  You realize that "grotesque" is often considered an English synonym for "ugly"? The entire style of font has been considered "ugly" for a lot longer than Comic Sans has existed. It's a form that's not often symmetrical or exact so it is an "odd" form and a lot of people historically have found "odd" to be "ugly". (Also, Comic Sans fits the definitions of both script fonts and grotesque fonts, so it is probably extremely subjective which bucket you prefer to define it.)
  - tokai 5y ago
    I dont understand why you think you little language lesson is relevant. As you write yourself the true (german) meaning of the term is strange. Laymen thought they were bizarre and maybe ugly. But for most other they were seen as very aesthetic from the onset. Which is why these new fonts absolutely dominated the fraktur fonts. The reaction to them was more about a culture shock than an aesthetic disapproval. It is a historic term and any interpretation were you call CS grotesk would be suspect.
    - WorldMaker 5y ago
      The etymology of the term is from Latin (for "hidden grotto"), and English inherited denotations (Dictionary meanings) both from German font usage and from French. I was pointing out the connotation (colloquial meaning) in English of "ugly" simply that it shows evidence for a long standing cultural bias. Enough of a long standing cultural bias that people may call them "ugly" simply out of "cultural habit" without examining where that bias came from or why they feel that way. I also subjectively think many of the grotesque fonts are quite pretty, and I like Comic Sans too, but if you are asking why people think they are "ugly", one of the reasons is "subconscious cultural bias" and the "language lesson" was pointing out deep evidence of that (at least in English speaking cultures).
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    "grotesque" is also a term of art in font circles for a certain kind of sans serif, which leads to endless confusion. "Look at that gorgeous grotesque" is a perfectly decent sentence for a designer to say.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
Many people don't know this font and yet it turns out spent some part of 16 years pressing their fingertips on it: https://jalopnik.com/see-if-you-can-spot-the-vw-connection-in-this-old-apple-1848401105 https://jalopnik.com/see-if-you-can-spot-the-vw-connection-i...

IgorPartola 5y ago

It makes me think of a 1970s carpeted office. Also of computers running Windows 95 in a local library that are infuriatingly slow and where right click is disabled in Internet Explorer.

CapsAdmin 5y ago

I thought that it's meant look imprecise which communicates that it's not final. similar idea and discussion from RoughViz: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21648968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21648968

tasha0663 5y ago
It doesn't look imprecise per se. These are just the letterforms you can get out of wood with a router. I'm curious why it's associated with blueprints, but I have no insight into the history of applying type to blueprints. EDIT: to answer my own question, it has to do with the scribing device used for Leroy letters. One of which was used to source this font. Nice description of how it was used here https://kleinletters.com/Blog/leroy-lettering-by-jim-and-margaret-wroten/ https://kleinletters.com/Blog/leroy-lettering-by-jim-and-mar...

yuubi 5y ago

Letter shapes usually have curves a bit more complicated (in the sense of "how many parameters do I have to write down to reproduce it?") than this typeface. It feels like it's made of straight segments and ellipses, and all the strokes are uniform width and have round ends. Also, the 'a' and 't' look like the kindergarten versions instead of the more usual two-story 'a' and 't' with some sort of curve at the bottom. Most of this is almost certainly driven by the context this typeface was designed for. The simple shapes probably come from usability considerations for the lettering machine: the user had to trace each stroke in the template by hand. The uniform stroke weight and rounded ends come from how the engraving tool worked: basically a drill bit you drag sideways. The curves are probably that way because there was a fashion for "modern" shapes a while back, which meant roughly "describable with a simple formula and few parameters" We're accustomed to typefaces that were designed for use in movable type, where variable stroke weights and end shapes are basically free.

Semaphor 5y ago
Interesting, that might be it. I already dislike serif fonts because I find they have too much complexity. So the simplicity of this font might be what draws me to it and is disliked by others. I also do enjoy the rounded ends.