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I don't disagree with you about whether Lisp magically makes people more productive: It doesn't. But you've asked for this kind of example a few times in the ev

I don't disagree with you about whether Lisp magically makes people more productive: It doesn't. But you've asked for this kind of example a few times in the evident expectation that no one can supply an answer, and I can, so, just so that there is such an answer in evidence, here's mine. I won't distinguish between projects that I wrote 100 percent myself, and ones where I was a contributor on a team. I include examples of both. Similarly, I won't distinguish between pure Lisp projects and ones where Lisp was one important tool among several, or between projects that I conceived from the start and ones where I joined someone else's. - a knowledge-based application compatibility testing system used in production by Apple to identify and report thousands of compatibility bugs in its system software - an experimental operating system for an Apple mobile device - a network security appliance acquired and shipped by Cisco - a direct-manipulation-based rapid application-development system - an embedded system controlling a forensic fingerprint-scanning device - a consumer-focused simple list-management database - a commercial graph database - a framework and compiler for building mobile simulation games - a knowledge-based control system for laser-sintering manufacturing machines - a strategy and control system for networks of real-time sensing devices I've omitted hobby projects and things I built only for my own use. All those above were for employers, clients, or direct sales to customers. Although, like you, I don't believe that Lisp magically transforms anyone into a 10x programmer, I have actually been a 10x programmer (according to DVCS statistics or stakeholder reports) on some projects, but I've only managed to do that using Lisp. To be fair, I have also been a 0.1x programmer, but never for very long. It's hard to be happy or to prosper in such a situation. Again, I don't disagree with your main point. Lisp won't magically make someone amazing. I do think, though, that it's a powerful force multiplier for programmers who get along with it well, and that for certain people (myself among them) it's the best kind of tool. I also don't think much of anything is proven by failing to find anyone who's done substantial work in Lisp, or who did things in Lisp that they couldn't do as easily without it, but if that did prove anything, then I guess I would be the disproof.

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medo-bear 5y ago
thank you for this! it is always so nice when someone uses 'argument from authority'[0] to pounce their preconceived notions onto everyone else, then someone else from even more authority proves them wrong. i also appreciated the following piece of honesty: > I won't distinguish between projects that I wrote 100 percent myself, and ones where I was a contributor on a team. I include examples of both. Similarly, I won't distinguish between pure Lisp projects and ones where Lisp was one important tool among several, or between projects that I conceived from the start and ones where I joined someone else's. on the other hand the person you are responding to claimed to have "implemented" a console game of great commercial success. this is somewhat disingenuous because at least according to the credits of said game, he was NOT the chief person behind its development. moreover, the one game i managed to find in which he was chief turned out to be a flop. in any event, this is still far more programming experience than i have right now, but since he likes games maybe he would appreciate knowing about the use of lisp in that domain and look up 'Game Oriented Assembly Lisp' [1] being responsible for this 10x mess (in this thread) i want to once again explain that it was just a playful joke. the parent claimed that lisp is not useful for large teams and in response i wrote that if he employs lisp he will have no use of large teams. i think this was a funny throwback to the 10x myth. but then again tastes in humor vary more widely than preferences for computer languages! anyway, i definitely do not think that people must use lisp, or that if they do they will magically be a super-dooper-programmer, or opposite: if they don't use lisp that they are somehow less worthy as programmers than lispers. i am definitely not a 10x programmer (nor do i try to be), but i really enjoy programming in lisp and i feel like i am more productive in it. however, what i think is important in my experience is that for quite a while i wanted to learn lisp but certain mistaken preconceived notions about it always diminished my motivation. so whenever i advocate use of lisp it is aimed at people who are of similar state of mind as i was then and i try to address those issues that held me back [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp

deleted 5y ago

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medo-bear 5y ago

thank you for this! it is always so nice when someone uses 'argument from authority'[0] to pounce their preconceived notions onto everyone else, then someone else from even more authority proves them wrong. i also appreciated the following piece of honesty: > I won't distinguish between projects that I wrote 100 percent myself, and ones where I was a contributor on a team. I include examples of both. Similarly, I won't distinguish between pure Lisp projects and ones where Lisp was one important tool among several, or between projects that I conceived from the start and ones where I joined someone else's. on the other hand the person you are responding to claimed to have "implemented" a console game of great commercial success. this is somewhat disingenuous because at least according to the credits of said game, he was NOT the chief person behind its development. moreover, the one game i managed to find in which he was chief turned out to be a flop. in any event, this is still far more programming experience than i have right now, but since he likes games maybe he would appreciate knowing about the use of lisp in that domain and look up 'Game Oriented Assembly Lisp' [1] being responsible for this 10x mess (in this thread) i want to once again explain that it was just a playful joke. the parent claimed that lisp is not useful for large teams and in response i wrote that if he employs lisp he will have no use of large teams. i think this was a funny throwback to the 10x myth. but then again tastes in humor vary more widely than preferences for computer languages! anyway, i definitely do not think that people must use lisp, or that if they do they will magically be a super-dooper-programmer, or opposite: if they don't use lisp that they are somehow less worthy as programmers than lispers. i am definitely not a 10x programmer (nor do i try to be), but i really enjoy programming in lisp and i feel like i am more productive in it. however, what i think is important in my experience is that for quite a while i wanted to learn lisp but certain mistaken preconceived notions about it always diminished my motivation. so whenever i advocate use of lisp it is aimed at people who are of similar state of mind as i was then and i try to address those issues that held me back [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp