4 ms·

Many people underestimate how hard is to store securely and reliably a crypto wallet key on long period.

bell-cot 5y ago
This +10 (if I could). And that ("Many people underestimate...") is before you factor in all the extremely talented people who are looking for ways to remotely steal crypto wallet data.
im3w1l 5y ago
Having a small amount of money on-chain can work as a hedge in many scenarios. Risk of losing, sure it is high, but the failure mode is very different from anything else you own, so the overall risk is lowered.
- lottin 5y ago
  So when society collapses you'll be fine because you'll have a small amount of money... that only exists on the internet.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - im3w1l 5y ago
    There are other possibilities than full collapse of society. A simple one is that your possesions are siezed.
lrvick 5y ago
I think it is a lot easier than reliably storing say, gold, and yet it is considered not unusual for people to keep some gold or other physical assets of value in personal home vaults. Unlike physical assets, you can make redundant copies of digital assets giving anyone not lazy a huge durability advantage. For readily accessible warm wallets not storing kidnapping-worthy amounts, this airgapped pattern can work well for the modestly technical https://github.com/hashbang/airgap/blob/master/docs/HD-Cryptocurrency-Wallet.md https://github.com/hashbang/airgap/blob/master/docs/HD-Crypt... Anyone that wants to learn reliable self custody hit me up. My job is teaching self custody to major fintech companies but anyone asking questions for personal use in public in places like #!:matrix.org I will help for free as I have time.
- raesene9 5y ago
  The difference between storing gold and crypto, is the range of people that can attack it. With Gold someone has to physically come to the location I've stored it in, that necessarily limits my attacker set. With crypto, if I use a hot wallet the whole world can attack me. And I know you can use a cold wallets and air-gapping, but now you need to get into managing those well. This is possible but inherently not easy for the average lay-person. And yep you can duplicate them, and again I look at how many relatively savvy people have DR incidents where they don't test their backups and restores regulaly and get a nasty surprise when they try a restore and realise they got corruption. All to say, it's possible sure, but I'm not sure for non-specialists I'd say it's a lot easier than gold.
  - lrvick 5y ago
    Any non technical person can learn to use a cold hardware wallet like a Trezor or Ledger these days. Anyone that can put a combination into a home vault can use one. I am not aware of anyone who has tried a modern hardware wallet that still argues that crypto self custody is above the abilities of anyone technical enough to use traditional online banking. Once they use a pen to write down the 24 word backup then they can simply write it down a second time, or a third. Store a copy in a safety deposit box or anywhere resistant to theft or fire. Easy. Anyone that can store paper stock certificates can do this only with these the copies are valid.
    - raesene9 5y ago
      So once I've got my 24 word backup, how is that any safer than storing gold? Anyone who could come steal my gold can come take my hardware wallet, could they not? Also the problem with duplicate hard wallet backups is, if I'm understanding it correctly, a thief can take any one of them to access the crypto? If so it's a tradeoff, redundancy against increased risk of loss...
      - lrvick 5y ago
        They can come take your hardware wallet but they can't use it without your passphase/pin and most have a built in self-destruct if you get the pin wrong too many times. Now if someone has an electron microscope and can read the raw memory cells, that is another matter, but not your typical adversary trying to steal for a quick buck at a pawn shop. It is also more durable because gold you can only store in a single location, whereas with a hardware wallet you could put you 24 word backup somewhere hard to access, maybe spread across one or more safety deposit boxes. Then if your funds ever feel at risk, you can simply erase your hardware wallet and go on vacation with confidence knowing you can trivially restore it when you get back with a trip to the bank.

This +10 (if I could). And that ("Many people underestimate...") is before you factor in all the extremely talented people who are looking for ways to remotely steal crypto wallet data.

im3w1l 5y ago

Having a small amount of money on-chain can work as a hedge in many scenarios. Risk of losing, sure it is high, but the failure mode is very different from anything else you own, so the overall risk is lowered.

lottin 5y ago
So when society collapses you'll be fine because you'll have a small amount of money... that only exists on the internet.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- im3w1l 5y ago
  There are other possibilities than full collapse of society. A simple one is that your possesions are siezed.

lrvick 5y ago

I think it is a lot easier than reliably storing say, gold, and yet it is considered not unusual for people to keep some gold or other physical assets of value in personal home vaults. Unlike physical assets, you can make redundant copies of digital assets giving anyone not lazy a huge durability advantage. For readily accessible warm wallets not storing kidnapping-worthy amounts, this airgapped pattern can work well for the modestly technical https://github.com/hashbang/airgap/blob/master/docs/HD-Cryptocurrency-Wallet.md https://github.com/hashbang/airgap/blob/master/docs/HD-Crypt... Anyone that wants to learn reliable self custody hit me up. My job is teaching self custody to major fintech companies but anyone asking questions for personal use in public in places like #!:matrix.org I will help for free as I have time.

raesene9 5y ago
The difference between storing gold and crypto, is the range of people that can attack it. With Gold someone has to physically come to the location I've stored it in, that necessarily limits my attacker set. With crypto, if I use a hot wallet the whole world can attack me. And I know you can use a cold wallets and air-gapping, but now you need to get into managing those well. This is possible but inherently not easy for the average lay-person. And yep you can duplicate them, and again I look at how many relatively savvy people have DR incidents where they don't test their backups and restores regulaly and get a nasty surprise when they try a restore and realise they got corruption. All to say, it's possible sure, but I'm not sure for non-specialists I'd say it's a lot easier than gold.
- lrvick 5y ago
  Any non technical person can learn to use a cold hardware wallet like a Trezor or Ledger these days. Anyone that can put a combination into a home vault can use one. I am not aware of anyone who has tried a modern hardware wallet that still argues that crypto self custody is above the abilities of anyone technical enough to use traditional online banking. Once they use a pen to write down the 24 word backup then they can simply write it down a second time, or a third. Store a copy in a safety deposit box or anywhere resistant to theft or fire. Easy. Anyone that can store paper stock certificates can do this only with these the copies are valid.
  - raesene9 5y ago
    So once I've got my 24 word backup, how is that any safer than storing gold? Anyone who could come steal my gold can come take my hardware wallet, could they not? Also the problem with duplicate hard wallet backups is, if I'm understanding it correctly, a thief can take any one of them to access the crypto? If so it's a tradeoff, redundancy against increased risk of loss...
    - lrvick 5y ago
      They can come take your hardware wallet but they can't use it without your passphase/pin and most have a built in self-destruct if you get the pin wrong too many times. Now if someone has an electron microscope and can read the raw memory cells, that is another matter, but not your typical adversary trying to steal for a quick buck at a pawn shop. It is also more durable because gold you can only store in a single location, whereas with a hardware wallet you could put you 24 word backup somewhere hard to access, maybe spread across one or more safety deposit boxes. Then if your funds ever feel at risk, you can simply erase your hardware wallet and go on vacation with confidence knowing you can trivially restore it when you get back with a trip to the bank.