5 ms·

> So people use banks. In the UK, they're mostly free. I give an institution my money and, due to a combination of their size, insurance, and regulators, I'm co

> So people use banks. In the UK, they're mostly free. I give an institution my money and, due to a combination of their size, insurance, and regulators, I'm confident that my money will still be there tomorrow. They are unlikely to give me fake notes, and they can refund me if I've been defrauded. I trust them. That's nice that you trust your bank. I wouldn't be so trusting. Nevertheless, if you want someone else to handle your funds for you, there are lots of reputable services that can hold your cryptocurrency with all of the guarantees you are desiring. I'm keeping my keys though.

GavinMcG 5y ago
> all of the guarantees Insurance? Regulatory oversight? Which services?
ManuelKiessling 5y ago
I haven't heard of a single case where a German bank customer lost his or her money because the bank did something fishy.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Fortunately, there are more countries than Germany, and some of them have a very fragile banking ecosystem that many people would like to avoid taking a part of. Just as one example, remember the Greece bank run some years ago? The banks ended up implementing limits on how much you could withdraw each month, which frustrated many people. I'd say that's pretty fishy when the banks give the impression that the money you put into the bank, you'll for sure be able to get out whenever you want.
  - amarant 5y ago
    Yeah that Greek incident wasn't great. Still a lot better than when the biggest crypto exchange of Turkey just left with all the money that one time. That was catastrophic for many customers!
- daniel-cussen 5y ago
  Well, right, banks generally work as intended. It's just they blow up sometimes. The oldest bank up until the 80's was Baring Brothers and they were so respectable, just so respectable, and then they collapsed by doing fishy things. The worse thing is, conditions can change very rapidly and you may no longer be able to withdraw your money for a few months while the currency is being devalued (like Argentina), or all the banks might start blowing up at the same time (United States, Chile in the 80s), or you might get invaded (will the bank's security save the day?), or the bankers might not be cut out to be bankers (I know a bank with 4-digit passwords).
  - oblio 5y ago
    It's good that we're getting alternatives, but they'll have to be regulated. And once we do that, cryptocurrencies doesn't gain us much compared to traditional banking. I do appreciate the optimism, though!
dmitriid 5y ago
> here are lots of reputable services that can hold your cryptocurrency Next step would be: "which are those services" and "by saying reputable, who vouches for their reputation". And the answer will invariably be silence or "just google it".
- mikegreenberg 5y ago
  Here's three: - https://www.sofi.com/invest/buy-cryptocurrency/ https://www.sofi.com/invest/buy-cryptocurrency/ - https://gemini.com/ https://gemini.com/ - https://coinlist.co/ https://coinlist.co/ These business have been around for quite a while (in technology terms) and each are trusted by many with managing cryptocurrency valued at billions of dollars. And your answer will invariably be some new threshold to move the "trust" goalpost to next.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > And your answer will invariably be some new threshold to move the "trust" goalpost to next. It won't. The only "goalpost" I have is: congrats, you've invented banks, with none of the safety nets.
    - mikegreenberg 5y ago
      > It won't. The only "goalpost" I have is: congrats, you've invented banks... Actually you moved it from "holding your cryptocurrency" to being a bank with safety nets. If you want someone to hold your funds with guarantees to make sure you don't mishandle them then you use dollars in a bank. But if you want to put anything other than, it will not have those guarantees or protections. Only dollars have been given these privileges. You have none of these privileges on other things like stocks, bonds, property, etc. But you can (and do) still hold them in banks and institutions without the guarantees you're asking for. Cryptocurrency is currently treated as an investment and a property (in the US) and will have the same guarantees available to it as stocks, bonds and other property from traditional institutions because that is the risk profile they have established and understand best. So, if you want the guarantees associated w US dollars, then you need to use US dollars. But having those guarantees from an institution holding your assets was never a goal of Bitcoin... that is, it intended to be a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. It is to distribute the power we currently give to those who manage monetary policy instead to a network of trust-less actors. It is to enable individuals with the means to accumulate and protect wealth. It provides permission-less commerce between private parties who would otherwise be prevented from using their assets as they choose. It is up to society how it uses and enables Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. If society chooses to treat it in a way that it doesn't deserve the guarantees you seek, then you should seek elsewhere in the market to get the guarantees you desire. And those which are looking for the above value propositions will be able to consider cryptocurrency among their options. Just because cryptocurrency does not do what you're asking, that doesn't make it any less useful to the rest of the market with different needs from yours.

GavinMcG 5y ago

> all of the guarantees Insurance? Regulatory oversight? Which services?

ManuelKiessling 5y ago

I haven't heard of a single case where a German bank customer lost his or her money because the bank did something fishy.

capableweb 5y ago
Fortunately, there are more countries than Germany, and some of them have a very fragile banking ecosystem that many people would like to avoid taking a part of. Just as one example, remember the Greece bank run some years ago? The banks ended up implementing limits on how much you could withdraw each month, which frustrated many people. I'd say that's pretty fishy when the banks give the impression that the money you put into the bank, you'll for sure be able to get out whenever you want.
- amarant 5y ago
  Yeah that Greek incident wasn't great. Still a lot better than when the biggest crypto exchange of Turkey just left with all the money that one time. That was catastrophic for many customers!
daniel-cussen 5y ago
Well, right, banks generally work as intended. It's just they blow up sometimes. The oldest bank up until the 80's was Baring Brothers and they were so respectable, just so respectable, and then they collapsed by doing fishy things. The worse thing is, conditions can change very rapidly and you may no longer be able to withdraw your money for a few months while the currency is being devalued (like Argentina), or all the banks might start blowing up at the same time (United States, Chile in the 80s), or you might get invaded (will the bank's security save the day?), or the bankers might not be cut out to be bankers (I know a bank with 4-digit passwords).
- oblio 5y ago
  It's good that we're getting alternatives, but they'll have to be regulated. And once we do that, cryptocurrencies doesn't gain us much compared to traditional banking. I do appreciate the optimism, though!

dmitriid 5y ago

> here are lots of reputable services that can hold your cryptocurrency Next step would be: "which are those services" and "by saying reputable, who vouches for their reputation". And the answer will invariably be silence or "just google it".

mikegreenberg 5y ago
Here's three: - https://www.sofi.com/invest/buy-cryptocurrency/ https://www.sofi.com/invest/buy-cryptocurrency/ - https://gemini.com/ https://gemini.com/ - https://coinlist.co/ https://coinlist.co/ These business have been around for quite a while (in technology terms) and each are trusted by many with managing cryptocurrency valued at billions of dollars. And your answer will invariably be some new threshold to move the "trust" goalpost to next.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > And your answer will invariably be some new threshold to move the "trust" goalpost to next. It won't. The only "goalpost" I have is: congrats, you've invented banks, with none of the safety nets.
  - mikegreenberg 5y ago
    > It won't. The only "goalpost" I have is: congrats, you've invented banks... Actually you moved it from "holding your cryptocurrency" to being a bank with safety nets. If you want someone to hold your funds with guarantees to make sure you don't mishandle them then you use dollars in a bank. But if you want to put anything other than, it will not have those guarantees or protections. Only dollars have been given these privileges. You have none of these privileges on other things like stocks, bonds, property, etc. But you can (and do) still hold them in banks and institutions without the guarantees you're asking for. Cryptocurrency is currently treated as an investment and a property (in the US) and will have the same guarantees available to it as stocks, bonds and other property from traditional institutions because that is the risk profile they have established and understand best. So, if you want the guarantees associated w US dollars, then you need to use US dollars. But having those guarantees from an institution holding your assets was never a goal of Bitcoin... that is, it intended to be a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. It is to distribute the power we currently give to those who manage monetary policy instead to a network of trust-less actors. It is to enable individuals with the means to accumulate and protect wealth. It provides permission-less commerce between private parties who would otherwise be prevented from using their assets as they choose. It is up to society how it uses and enables Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. If society chooses to treat it in a way that it doesn't deserve the guarantees you seek, then you should seek elsewhere in the market to get the guarantees you desire. And those which are looking for the above value propositions will be able to consider cryptocurrency among their options. Just because cryptocurrency does not do what you're asking, that doesn't make it any less useful to the rest of the market with different needs from yours.