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> I have neither a feeling nor a rationally logical proof of this idea. It's just an intuitive guess. This intuition, that there is something special and uniq

> I have neither a feeling nor a rationally logical proof of this idea. It's just an intuitive guess. This intuition, that there is something special and unique about what 'we' are, is baked into our brains by many thousands of years of evolution, and this makes it so extremely difficult for us to believe that there's nothing more to us then a bunch of molecules. This is why people have invented theories about souls, reincarnation, collective consciousness and what not.

stevofolife 5y ago
We are unique as humans if you compare us to any biological being. Saying we are not is a very big understatement.
- Layke1123 5y ago
  What do you mean by unique?
- cgriswald 5y ago
  My interpretation of the GP's use of 'unique' here isn't specific necessarily to humans, just to conscious beings. Still, if you take the set H of properties of humans and the set B of the properties of all other Earth creatures, you'll find that H is a proper subset of B. What makes humans 'unique' in the regard you mean isn't kind, but scale and combination.
bcgraham 5y ago
Aren’t you describing exactly the kind of “intuitive guess” he referred to, for why consciousness is embodied?
qwerty456127 5y ago
It's difficult to believe we are nothing more to us then a bunch of molecules because I still am me if I loose an arm, a memory or any given part of my brain. One can gradually replace every tiny part of his body with prosthetics and the point at which he will stop being them and become an imitation both exists and does not. What's the difference between me and a perfect imitation? I believe I am going to remain where I was if someone just makes an atom-perfect copy of mine and puts it near so the copy will probably have exactly the same memories I have and believe it is me but will not be me actually.
- ChikkaChiChi 5y ago
  I understand your point, but if we truly are "Ships of Thesus" in meat form, then is consciousness only a present moment phenomena that can merely tap into our biological record-keeping? We may be relying too heavily on the basis that our experience and our sense of being are a combination that begets consciousness; when they may just as likely be separate systems.
- Layke1123 5y ago
  > It's difficult to believe we are nothing more to us then a bunch of molecules because I still am me... What do you mean by still "me"? If I lose an arm, I would definitely say I have lost a part of "me". > What's the difference between me and a perfect imitation? As far as I can tell, there is no difference until you begin to interact with the outside world, at which point the "yous" are no longer the same. Your body is constantly replacing itself with new parts and molecules to keep your brain and body functioning. This effectively means you are building a new copy of yourself all the time. Why does it bother you if another process does it all at once? Does gradually replacing all of what is "you" make you feel better about "you" versus some ability to make it all at once and see it happening? > I believe I am going to remain where I was if someone just makes an atom-perfect copy of mine and puts it near so the copy will probably have exactly the same memories I have and believe it is me but will not be me actually. The other argument is that the "clone" you will very vigorously also try to defend it's "me" status since you are perfect copies, and it will claim that it is it's own "me" brought about not by birth, but by artificial means and claim it has the exact same rights as you would. It didn't choose the path of "birth", but if you are perfect clones, why does it have any less right to the life it believes it has that you do? Because you were "born naturally"? What if you made the clone for spare body parts and through a misstep, the clone woke up. I would argue the clone has the right to your life now for gross human rights violations if it so chooses while you would head off to prison hopefully wihtout parole.
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stevofolife 5y ago

We are unique as humans if you compare us to any biological being. Saying we are not is a very big understatement.

Layke1123 5y ago
What do you mean by unique?
cgriswald 5y ago
My interpretation of the GP's use of 'unique' here isn't specific necessarily to humans, just to conscious beings. Still, if you take the set H of properties of humans and the set B of the properties of all other Earth creatures, you'll find that H is a proper subset of B. What makes humans 'unique' in the regard you mean isn't kind, but scale and combination.

bcgraham 5y ago

Aren’t you describing exactly the kind of “intuitive guess” he referred to, for why consciousness is embodied?

qwerty456127 5y ago

It's difficult to believe we are nothing more to us then a bunch of molecules because I still am me if I loose an arm, a memory or any given part of my brain. One can gradually replace every tiny part of his body with prosthetics and the point at which he will stop being them and become an imitation both exists and does not. What's the difference between me and a perfect imitation? I believe I am going to remain where I was if someone just makes an atom-perfect copy of mine and puts it near so the copy will probably have exactly the same memories I have and believe it is me but will not be me actually.

ChikkaChiChi 5y ago
I understand your point, but if we truly are "Ships of Thesus" in meat form, then is consciousness only a present moment phenomena that can merely tap into our biological record-keeping? We may be relying too heavily on the basis that our experience and our sense of being are a combination that begets consciousness; when they may just as likely be separate systems.
Layke1123 5y ago
> It's difficult to believe we are nothing more to us then a bunch of molecules because I still am me... What do you mean by still "me"? If I lose an arm, I would definitely say I have lost a part of "me". > What's the difference between me and a perfect imitation? As far as I can tell, there is no difference until you begin to interact with the outside world, at which point the "yous" are no longer the same. Your body is constantly replacing itself with new parts and molecules to keep your brain and body functioning. This effectively means you are building a new copy of yourself all the time. Why does it bother you if another process does it all at once? Does gradually replacing all of what is "you" make you feel better about "you" versus some ability to make it all at once and see it happening? > I believe I am going to remain where I was if someone just makes an atom-perfect copy of mine and puts it near so the copy will probably have exactly the same memories I have and believe it is me but will not be me actually. The other argument is that the "clone" you will very vigorously also try to defend it's "me" status since you are perfect copies, and it will claim that it is it's own "me" brought about not by birth, but by artificial means and claim it has the exact same rights as you would. It didn't choose the path of "birth", but if you are perfect clones, why does it have any less right to the life it believes it has that you do? Because you were "born naturally"? What if you made the clone for spare body parts and through a misstep, the clone woke up. I would argue the clone has the right to your life now for gross human rights violations if it so chooses while you would head off to prison hopefully wihtout parole.

deleted 5y ago

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