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If you really want the answer then you need to be prepared to face some tough truths. There is no magic. Consciousness is an illusion. It's an emergent behav

If you really want the answer then you need to be prepared to face some tough truths. There is no magic. Consciousness is an illusion. It's an emergent behavior from an incredibly complex neural automata.

netizen-936824 5y ago
And in this complexity lies incredible beauty
misja111 5y ago
This. There's nothing magic about consciousness, and if you think it is, it's because your brains are hardwired to be convinced that you're special. But we're not. In the article, this is said very well: > Would you say that these more complicated states of emotion represent higher or more complex “levels” of consciousness? > Seth: I’m personally very skeptical of this kind of labeling, of higher and lower levels of consciousness. There is a little truth to it, of course. Unless we can agree that human beings are in some sense, more conscious than, say, an ant, we’re missing some very important things about the nature of consciousness.
bekantan 5y ago
Honest question: following this argument, is it to be expected that a sufficiently complex water pipeline can become conscious?
- bondarchuk 5y ago
  Of course. This is table stakes and has been since the early 1700's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%27s_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%27s_gap
toshk 5y ago
From one of the dominant theories of a material view indeed an emergent behavior from an incredibly complex neural automata. But from our daily experiences actually reality is an emergent property from our consciousness (or awareness). What we do feel, smell, hear, forms into concept, meaning, experiences forms our "reality". There might be a theoretical other "reality" or it might be a bit different many think it is now, but it doesn't make it more or less real, in the sense of actual experience it's less real.
spupe 5y ago
Consciousness is not an illusion, it is a real phenomenon that is experienced daily by almost every human. You might be referring to free will and its subjective experience, which is a different story.
- misja111 5y ago
  It depends what you mean with 'real'. The experience or feeling of having consciousness is real, that's true. But the fact that humans experience consciousness doesn't make it a real physical phenomenon. Not so long ago most people believed that the Earth was flat because that's what they experienced when they looked around them. Many people believe in ghosts. Still this doesn't make them real.
  - spupe 5y ago
    > The experience or feeling of having consciousness is real, that's true. But the fact that humans experience consciousness doesn't make it a real physical phenomenon. Unless you believe in supranatural explanations for it, yes, it does. The beliefs you mention, like a flat Earth, were/are real and also false. So in this analogy, consciousness is real, but many of the explanations for it or powers ascribed to it are false.
Sosh101 5y ago
How can you have an illusion without an observer? An illusion is by definition a subjective experience - it doesn't explain the thing doing the experiencing at all. You say there is no magic, but your explanation might as well be "it's just magic".
- misja111 5y ago
  An illusion is a belief or perception which does not match reality. A belief is something that is stored in memory. So there is nothing to 'observe' about an illusion; an illusion is an error in either memory or perception of the observer himself.
  - hamilyon2 5y ago
    I think I understand what gp means. He is trying to point to a contradiction in ggp reasoning. The question is in the definition of words "subjective" and "observer". You cannot define an observer using the concept of observer, that's circular reasoning. "Incredibly complex neural automata" is just handwaving the problem away. Equivalent of saying "here the magic happens", not an explanation.
    - willis936 5y ago
      It isn't handwaving. I'm saying the act of observation is not special. It's matter knowing it's matter. "Observation" and "knowing" are simply emergent behaviors of the matter. There is no divine step between matter and consciousness. I'm saying there is nothing to explain because consciousness should not be viewed through the lens of it being special.
psyc 5y ago
I won't be disappointed if it turns out to be an illusion. I suspect it's in the nature of consciousness to be comprised of many illusions, in fact. But I'm still waiting on an explanation for the illusion. Now, if you tell me the illusions prevents us from ever understanding the illusion, then I will be disappointed.

netizen-936824 5y ago

And in this complexity lies incredible beauty

misja111 5y ago

This. There's nothing magic about consciousness, and if you think it is, it's because your brains are hardwired to be convinced that you're special. But we're not. In the article, this is said very well: > Would you say that these more complicated states of emotion represent higher or more complex “levels” of consciousness? > Seth: I’m personally very skeptical of this kind of labeling, of higher and lower levels of consciousness. There is a little truth to it, of course. Unless we can agree that human beings are in some sense, more conscious than, say, an ant, we’re missing some very important things about the nature of consciousness.

bekantan 5y ago

Honest question: following this argument, is it to be expected that a sufficiently complex water pipeline can become conscious?

bondarchuk 5y ago
Of course. This is table stakes and has been since the early 1700's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%27s_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%27s_gap

toshk 5y ago

From one of the dominant theories of a material view indeed an emergent behavior from an incredibly complex neural automata. But from our daily experiences actually reality is an emergent property from our consciousness (or awareness). What we do feel, smell, hear, forms into concept, meaning, experiences forms our "reality". There might be a theoretical other "reality" or it might be a bit different many think it is now, but it doesn't make it more or less real, in the sense of actual experience it's less real.

spupe 5y ago

Consciousness is not an illusion, it is a real phenomenon that is experienced daily by almost every human. You might be referring to free will and its subjective experience, which is a different story.

misja111 5y ago
It depends what you mean with 'real'. The experience or feeling of having consciousness is real, that's true. But the fact that humans experience consciousness doesn't make it a real physical phenomenon. Not so long ago most people believed that the Earth was flat because that's what they experienced when they looked around them. Many people believe in ghosts. Still this doesn't make them real.
- spupe 5y ago
  > The experience or feeling of having consciousness is real, that's true. But the fact that humans experience consciousness doesn't make it a real physical phenomenon. Unless you believe in supranatural explanations for it, yes, it does. The beliefs you mention, like a flat Earth, were/are real and also false. So in this analogy, consciousness is real, but many of the explanations for it or powers ascribed to it are false.

Sosh101 5y ago

How can you have an illusion without an observer? An illusion is by definition a subjective experience - it doesn't explain the thing doing the experiencing at all. You say there is no magic, but your explanation might as well be "it's just magic".

misja111 5y ago
An illusion is a belief or perception which does not match reality. A belief is something that is stored in memory. So there is nothing to 'observe' about an illusion; an illusion is an error in either memory or perception of the observer himself.
- hamilyon2 5y ago
  I think I understand what gp means. He is trying to point to a contradiction in ggp reasoning. The question is in the definition of words "subjective" and "observer". You cannot define an observer using the concept of observer, that's circular reasoning. "Incredibly complex neural automata" is just handwaving the problem away. Equivalent of saying "here the magic happens", not an explanation.
  - willis936 5y ago
    It isn't handwaving. I'm saying the act of observation is not special. It's matter knowing it's matter. "Observation" and "knowing" are simply emergent behaviors of the matter. There is no divine step between matter and consciousness. I'm saying there is nothing to explain because consciousness should not be viewed through the lens of it being special.

psyc 5y ago

I won't be disappointed if it turns out to be an illusion. I suspect it's in the nature of consciousness to be comprised of many illusions, in fact. But I'm still waiting on an explanation for the illusion. Now, if you tell me the illusions prevents us from ever understanding the illusion, then I will be disappointed.