7 ms·

It is astounding to see so many people here argue for the 30% apple tax. It is like the mafia demanding you pay for the privilege of doing business on your str

It is astounding to see so many people here argue for the 30% apple tax. It is like the mafia demanding you pay for the privilege of doing business on your street. 30% is just too much. My client is selling a service where they are selling a physical product together with something you do with it in the app. Currently the customers buy the service and device in a separate shop and the app is just for the convenience of the user, they could also use a laptop conputer or whatever else. The client wanted to include a link to the shop in the app, but apple wouldn't allow it without their 30% tax. With this 30% cut providing the service for apple users wouldn't make business sense, they would lose money on each sale. Should they have higher prices for iphone users to make up for that?

jacquesm 5y ago
People are arguing for that tax because they genuinely believe that Apple will somehow respond to this in a way that will cause their own income stream to be affected negatively (for instance: if Apple decides to raise the 30% to make up for the shortfall of companies that go outside of their platform). It's Stockholm Syndrome. Apple got away lucky that they weren't ordered to be split up and to run their payment service provider as an independent entity. It could still happen, the EU is pretty aggressive when it comes to monopolies overreaching their legal limits or abusing their position. The various phone operators here have been smacked down pretty hard time and again on things like roaming, service fees and so on. Apple is no different.
- zepto 5y ago
  No, people are arguing this because they think the 15% represents good value compared to what you would have to do as an indie developer to support multiple stores and payment methods.
- rosndo 5y ago
  I’m arguing for the tax because it provides a strong incentive for app developers to stick to Apples payment systems, that’s good for me as an end user. I’m also arguing for the tax because I believe that Apple has the absolute right to collect such a tax, why wouldn’t they? They’re far from being a monopolist. Stockholm syndrome? Mobile app development sounds like the last thing I’d want to have anything to do with.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > I’m arguing for the tax because it provides a strong incentive for app developers to stick to Apples payment systems, that’s good for me as an end user. You as an end user are not party to the agreement that Apple has with the developers. You are of course free to choose not to do business with parties that do not support Apples payment system, but the same goes for Stripe, PayPal, Adyen and all the other PSPs. > I’m also arguing for the tax because I believe that Apple has the absolute right to collect such a tax, why wouldn’t they? Because they are abusing their position to do so. > They’re far from being a monopolist. Your understanding of what constitutes a de-facto monopoly is broken. > Stockholm syndrome? > Mobile app development sounds like the last thing I’d want to have anything to do with. That is your choice and your right, but plenty of high performance and/or low level applications have no choice but to go native.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      > You as an end user are not party to the agreement that Apple has with the developers In the end this will be a political decision. I vote. > Your understanding of what constitutes a de-facto monopoly is broken. The monopoly argument may work in the US, but not in the EU. Apple may be up to nasty stuff that legislators should act against, but they’re certainly not a monopolist.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        You are getting quite tiring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_101_of_the_Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_101_of_the_Treaty_on_t... https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competit...
        rosndo 5y ago
        “Monopoly” is a word with a specific meaning, lets try to not use it as a catch-all for any trade practices you’re unhappy with.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  How much money did app developers make before and after the existence of the App Store? Do the math.
  - wavefunction 5y ago
    If my math checks out, it comes out to...? Trust-busting an Abusive Rent-Seeking Monopoly?!?
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      Yes I’m sure app developers were making tons before Apple and their rent seeking abusive monopoly. If it’s so abusive for the developers why do they stay on it?
      - aspenmayer 5y ago
        If it were only abusive for the developers, why is EU intervening on behalf of all users, including developers? It’s harmful to competition, and the harm to developers is the cherry on top.
  - AJ007 5y ago
    Yeah but how much money did Apple make before the iPhone? Maybe they should be paying the telecoms for all this data use.
ravenstine 5y ago
It's a mindset I'll never fully comprehend myself. Supposedly I did work to earn a profit, but clearly not so much work that I shouldn't thank whatever system I'm subject to for the privilege of... making a transaction that barely involved said system, if at all. 5% or even 10% would be more acceptable. But 30%? lol For what? There's no way the vast majority of that cut is necessary for Apple's financial operations or for them to make a reasonable profit. How some people can't see this as greed is mind blowing. Where do they draw the line?
- dageshi 5y ago
  I'll tell you honestly why. It's because if they charged 5% or 10% it wouldn't be worth Apples time. If they can't make 30% on the app store they'll go do something else which will make them 30%+ and leave it to rot. Because 5% or 10% is a commodity business and they can do better than that.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    If there was something else that they could be making that kind of money for that little work, they'd already be doing it. Apple got lucky with a lock-in ecosystem and they obviously design great hardware, but I don't see them just up and deciding to dominate another market to make similar profits just because they're Apple.
  - kybernetyk 5y ago
    Well, the Mac software landscape flourished before Apple had an app store. I wouldn't mind if they just gave up and let people distribute software how God intended.
    - threeseed 5y ago
      Yes the Mac flourished with it's 5-10% market share.
  - temac 5y ago
    Above something that is probably quite marginal this is basically free money for Apple. What are you comparing 30% to? Profit vs gross income? That's not what the 30% are here. That's 30% of an amount which depends on: * a market that is so large that in a bunch of area it is basically not limiting - Apple has an influence on that but capturing so much value on 3rd party apps should not be warranted IMO, otherwise it would be warranted for them to also capture a big part on most of software for MacOs sales (esp. since the configuration by default is now quite secure so the argument that the App Store for iPhone is so valuable because it is curated is getting weaker) and for MS to capture a big part on most of software sales for Windows (and maybe give some crumbs to PC hardware manufacturers) * the success of 3rd party apps, most of which has not much to do with Apple
echelon 5y ago
People fall in love with Apple the same way they do a sports team or actor. They begin to cheer for it and want their favorite to win all the games, the best roles, the awards. Unfortunately these fields are all zero-sum, and small companies get pulverized by the hits to their cash flow.
vmception 5y ago
yeah usually the mafia has lower tax rates
awildfivreld 5y ago
> It is like the mafia demanding you pay for the privilege of doing business on your street If Apple were to add this tax or raise it long after launch I could perhaps see this argument. However, this tax is nothing new. AFAIK it has been like this for _years_. App developers must have known (before starting development) that there is a fee if you were to use the platform. If you knew a certain street has mafia activity (or other similar taxes), would you make the concious choise of moving your store there? Well, if the business opportunuties are good enough, then it might be worth it. If the mafia suddenly showed up, then the equation could be different. This is just like any other business investment analysis. If 30% is too much all in all, then it is unsustainable to keep the app store as an option.
- zachrip 5y ago
  App developers don't get to choose which platforms their users are on. There's a reason why things like react-native mainly target ios and android - that's where the users are. That is why people compare it to the mafia, you have to do business there, which means you have to pay them. Where are you finding users that aren't on android/ios?
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
The profit margins scream lack of competition. In a competitive market you'd have dozens of companies scrambling in the hope of shaving off even 1% of the App store's revenue.
- 542458 5y ago
  Right, but that doesn’t necessarily equal a good time for consumers. It’s a common gripe among PC gamers that every major vendor wants their own launcher, some of which are borderline spyware.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
    The choices I have on PC are wonderful. Many games are on multiple launchers or no launcher is necessary- download straight from the web. Lots of overlap between GOG, Steam, and Windows/Xbox Store. I can download and control games I buy DRM free from GOG. It's awesome.
weberer 5y ago
>It is like the mafia demanding you pay for the privilege of doing business on your street. 30% is just too much. Or like the IRS
mmar 5y ago
I wonder how many of those defending Apple position also own Apple stocks.
kmlx 5y ago
> 30% is just too much. i see you never had to deal with retailers.
AniseAbyss 5y ago
It would be FAIR if you could charge iPhone customers more than Android customers but Apple is not stupid. The small print in your contract forbids just that.
- scarface74 5y ago
  They stopped that almost a decade ago. When Spotify still allowed in app purchases , they charged more than on their own website.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
whiddershins 5y ago
It’s not your street. The cloud storage, the authentication, the AR libraries … the list of stuff Apple provides is overwhelming. It’s fine to criticize their business practices, and their monopoly. But you have zero right to their street.
mrunkel 5y ago
If the mafia built the street, provided you with a shop to sell out of (with all sorts of nice features, got customers to come to your shop, and acted as a first line of customer support for all billing issues, would it be more reasonable that they got 30%? How much revenue would developers make if Apple hadn't built the iPhone and the App Store and successfully marketed the thing to millions of customers? What would be a fair price? The linking stuff is simply because developers have tried time and time again to game the system by linking to outside shops. Hence the blanket ban.

jacquesm 5y ago

People are arguing for that tax because they genuinely believe that Apple will somehow respond to this in a way that will cause their own income stream to be affected negatively (for instance: if Apple decides to raise the 30% to make up for the shortfall of companies that go outside of their platform). It's Stockholm Syndrome. Apple got away lucky that they weren't ordered to be split up and to run their payment service provider as an independent entity. It could still happen, the EU is pretty aggressive when it comes to monopolies overreaching their legal limits or abusing their position. The various phone operators here have been smacked down pretty hard time and again on things like roaming, service fees and so on. Apple is no different.

zepto 5y ago
No, people are arguing this because they think the 15% represents good value compared to what you would have to do as an indie developer to support multiple stores and payment methods.
rosndo 5y ago
I’m arguing for the tax because it provides a strong incentive for app developers to stick to Apples payment systems, that’s good for me as an end user. I’m also arguing for the tax because I believe that Apple has the absolute right to collect such a tax, why wouldn’t they? They’re far from being a monopolist. Stockholm syndrome? Mobile app development sounds like the last thing I’d want to have anything to do with.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > I’m arguing for the tax because it provides a strong incentive for app developers to stick to Apples payment systems, that’s good for me as an end user. You as an end user are not party to the agreement that Apple has with the developers. You are of course free to choose not to do business with parties that do not support Apples payment system, but the same goes for Stripe, PayPal, Adyen and all the other PSPs. > I’m also arguing for the tax because I believe that Apple has the absolute right to collect such a tax, why wouldn’t they? Because they are abusing their position to do so. > They’re far from being a monopolist. Your understanding of what constitutes a de-facto monopoly is broken. > Stockholm syndrome? > Mobile app development sounds like the last thing I’d want to have anything to do with. That is your choice and your right, but plenty of high performance and/or low level applications have no choice but to go native.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    > You as an end user are not party to the agreement that Apple has with the developers In the end this will be a political decision. I vote. > Your understanding of what constitutes a de-facto monopoly is broken. The monopoly argument may work in the US, but not in the EU. Apple may be up to nasty stuff that legislators should act against, but they’re certainly not a monopolist.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      You are getting quite tiring. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_101_of_the_Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_101_of_the_Treaty_on_t... https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competit...
      - rosndo 5y ago
        “Monopoly” is a word with a specific meaning, lets try to not use it as a catch-all for any trade practices you’re unhappy with.
endisneigh 5y ago
How much money did app developers make before and after the existence of the App Store? Do the math.
- wavefunction 5y ago
  If my math checks out, it comes out to...? Trust-busting an Abusive Rent-Seeking Monopoly?!?
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Yes I’m sure app developers were making tons before Apple and their rent seeking abusive monopoly. If it’s so abusive for the developers why do they stay on it?
    - aspenmayer 5y ago
      If it were only abusive for the developers, why is EU intervening on behalf of all users, including developers? It’s harmful to competition, and the harm to developers is the cherry on top.
- AJ007 5y ago
  Yeah but how much money did Apple make before the iPhone? Maybe they should be paying the telecoms for all this data use.

ravenstine 5y ago

It's a mindset I'll never fully comprehend myself. Supposedly I did work to earn a profit, but clearly not so much work that I shouldn't thank whatever system I'm subject to for the privilege of... making a transaction that barely involved said system, if at all. 5% or even 10% would be more acceptable. But 30%? lol For what? There's no way the vast majority of that cut is necessary for Apple's financial operations or for them to make a reasonable profit. How some people can't see this as greed is mind blowing. Where do they draw the line?

dageshi 5y ago
I'll tell you honestly why. It's because if they charged 5% or 10% it wouldn't be worth Apples time. If they can't make 30% on the app store they'll go do something else which will make them 30%+ and leave it to rot. Because 5% or 10% is a commodity business and they can do better than that.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  If there was something else that they could be making that kind of money for that little work, they'd already be doing it. Apple got lucky with a lock-in ecosystem and they obviously design great hardware, but I don't see them just up and deciding to dominate another market to make similar profits just because they're Apple.
- kybernetyk 5y ago
  Well, the Mac software landscape flourished before Apple had an app store. I wouldn't mind if they just gave up and let people distribute software how God intended.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Yes the Mac flourished with it's 5-10% market share.
- temac 5y ago
  Above something that is probably quite marginal this is basically free money for Apple. What are you comparing 30% to? Profit vs gross income? That's not what the 30% are here. That's 30% of an amount which depends on: * a market that is so large that in a bunch of area it is basically not limiting - Apple has an influence on that but capturing so much value on 3rd party apps should not be warranted IMO, otherwise it would be warranted for them to also capture a big part on most of software for MacOs sales (esp. since the configuration by default is now quite secure so the argument that the App Store for iPhone is so valuable because it is curated is getting weaker) and for MS to capture a big part on most of software sales for Windows (and maybe give some crumbs to PC hardware manufacturers) * the success of 3rd party apps, most of which has not much to do with Apple

echelon 5y ago

People fall in love with Apple the same way they do a sports team or actor. They begin to cheer for it and want their favorite to win all the games, the best roles, the awards. Unfortunately these fields are all zero-sum, and small companies get pulverized by the hits to their cash flow.

vmception 5y ago

yeah usually the mafia has lower tax rates

awildfivreld 5y ago

> It is like the mafia demanding you pay for the privilege of doing business on your street If Apple were to add this tax or raise it long after launch I could perhaps see this argument. However, this tax is nothing new. AFAIK it has been like this for _years_. App developers must have known (before starting development) that there is a fee if you were to use the platform. If you knew a certain street has mafia activity (or other similar taxes), would you make the concious choise of moving your store there? Well, if the business opportunuties are good enough, then it might be worth it. If the mafia suddenly showed up, then the equation could be different. This is just like any other business investment analysis. If 30% is too much all in all, then it is unsustainable to keep the app store as an option.

zachrip 5y ago
App developers don't get to choose which platforms their users are on. There's a reason why things like react-native mainly target ios and android - that's where the users are. That is why people compare it to the mafia, you have to do business there, which means you have to pay them. Where are you finding users that aren't on android/ios?

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

The profit margins scream lack of competition. In a competitive market you'd have dozens of companies scrambling in the hope of shaving off even 1% of the App store's revenue.

542458 5y ago
Right, but that doesn’t necessarily equal a good time for consumers. It’s a common gripe among PC gamers that every major vendor wants their own launcher, some of which are borderline spyware.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  The choices I have on PC are wonderful. Many games are on multiple launchers or no launcher is necessary- download straight from the web. Lots of overlap between GOG, Steam, and Windows/Xbox Store. I can download and control games I buy DRM free from GOG. It's awesome.

weberer 5y ago

>It is like the mafia demanding you pay for the privilege of doing business on your street. 30% is just too much. Or like the IRS

mmar 5y ago

I wonder how many of those defending Apple position also own Apple stocks.

kmlx 5y ago

> 30% is just too much. i see you never had to deal with retailers.

AniseAbyss 5y ago

It would be FAIR if you could charge iPhone customers more than Android customers but Apple is not stupid. The small print in your contract forbids just that.

scarface74 5y ago
They stopped that almost a decade ago. When Spotify still allowed in app purchases , they charged more than on their own website.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

whiddershins 5y ago

It’s not your street. The cloud storage, the authentication, the AR libraries … the list of stuff Apple provides is overwhelming. It’s fine to criticize their business practices, and their monopoly. But you have zero right to their street.

mrunkel 5y ago

If the mafia built the street, provided you with a shop to sell out of (with all sorts of nice features, got customers to come to your shop, and acted as a first line of customer support for all billing issues, would it be more reasonable that they got 30%? How much revenue would developers make if Apple hadn't built the iPhone and the App Store and successfully marketed the thing to millions of customers? What would be a fair price? The linking stuff is simply because developers have tried time and time again to game the system by linking to outside shops. Hence the blanket ban.