6 ms·

Exactly. It literally enables level playing field for smaller developers who can't simply incorporate in 175 countries and navigate through the rules, regulatio

by mrtksn 5y ago

Exactly. It literally enables level playing field for smaller developers who can't simply incorporate in 175 countries and navigate through the rules, regulations of taxes. The value that Apple provides for the smaller developers is immense, you don't actually see small developers complaining about Apple(with exception to those who were sherlocked maybe) but you see multi billion corporations pretending to be advocating for the little guy. I'm very annoyed by all this, I'm afraid that they will win and solo developers will lose any chance to make it big without getting screwed by large publishers. Can you please stop saving the small developers from Apple? Thank you.

jacquesm 5y ago
> you see multi billion corporations pretending to be advocating for the little guy. And they are. The little guys won't stand up to 30% of their gross taken but the big guys can and do. As a result after all the lawsuits have run their course Apple will be charging a much lower fee in the hopes of regaining their payment processing marketshare.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  How do you decide that %30 breaks the business but %15 is fine? Can I see your math please?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    This is not an argument made in good faith so I will ignore it.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Please don't ignore, I'm curious how I will not stand a chance at %30 but it's fine at %15. I want to know if this is your gut feeling or do you know something concrete. Thanks.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        I just look at what other payment service providers charge, they are between 1 and 5% based on volume, risk, transaction size. There is plenty of competition in the payment processing space. When you take the card companies' cut into account the fees are even lower for the transaction processing.
        simondotau 5y ago
        Suggesting that what Apple does is equivalent to a payment processor is ridiculous. I suggest looking at Epic v Apple and how that argument went down in court. It was embarrassing to witness.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, agreed they are more like a mob running amok in a neighborhood but for the moment I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and looking at it purely as a transaction processor. I wonder how all of those defending Apple in this thread would respond if they jacked up the prices to say 75%. And why stop there?
        simondotau 5y ago
        I was hoping for a serious conversation.
        mrtksn 5y ago
        How do you pay your taxes in UK, Turkey, Poland, USA, Japan, China, Australia and the rest of the 175 countries? How do you handle the regulatory requirements in each country and how do you navigate through the trade agreements?
        jacquesm 5y ago
        If you don't know the answers to these questions, why are you even active in this thread? I've been running an international business for a couple of decades and this has never been a problem at all.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Do you think that a 99% tax/commission would be fine? If not, how do you decide that 99% breaks the business, but 30% is fine? The answer of course is that different businesses have different margins. For some, even paying 99% commission to Apple would not break the business, as they have such great margins that even getting 1% of each sale would still leave them profitable. For others, even a 1% commission is too much, as they have such low margins even losing 1% of sales price makes them unprofitable. For any set price, some business models are excluded from the App Store, for better or for worse.
harshitaneja 5y ago
This 15% happened after all the outrage. Yes, all these mega corps don't care about the little guy but apple allowing third party options doesn't take away from their ability to continue to provide the services to developers who see value in apple's payment services.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Are you a developer? Can I see your apps? I'm curios about your business model where selling coins or unlocking premium features at %30 commission instead of %15 breaks your business to the point that incorporating in 175 countries is more desirable.
  - harshitaneja 5y ago
    I develop. No, 30% doesn't break my business majorly because my business model is not around app sales but I agree with your point that for most 15 and 30 won't break the business. But you are presenting a false dichotomy. Why are we assuming if apple doesn't offer these services, a third party won't as well? And I am not proposing that apple stop offering its payment and other distribution services but rather that third parties be allowed to do the same.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      There's nothing desirable in dealing with multiple 3rd parties to reach your customers instead of one that is essentially providing equal service at equal price to (almost)everyone.
      - harshitaneja 5y ago
        And I am not advocating that any one takes away that from you, just for us to have a choice.
      - pritambaral 5y ago
        > providing ... service The mafia also provides services. You don't just pay them and get nothing in return. Of course, there, as here, you really have no choice but to pay; and to pay ridiculously inflated rates. > ... at equal price Not true. Apple's price is zero. Sucks if you're competing with them, then. Maybe we should all be thankful Apple at-least let's you compete, even if with a handicap. Unlike the mafia.
MilaM 5y ago
And yet somehow indie devs have managed to sell software for macOS for decades before the invention of the Apple App Store. Only the larger software shops are atually running their own payment and licensing backends. Most use payment providers like Paddle or Fastspring. There are also other distribution channels like SetApp for expample. One thing that Apple has made very easy for devs are In-App Payments. But I think you can argue if that is such a good thing for Apple's customers.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  macOS app ecosystem isn't really thriving and the regulatory complexities arrived after the Internet matured. Something being possible isn't the same as being good. Selling 1000 copies at %30 commission(it tends to be around %50 once you ad stuff like VAT) is much better than selling 10 copies at %1 commission. I also think that from the users perspective it's much better to have one place where you manage all your payments/subscriptions/downloads etc. That can be solved through some kind of unified purchasing interface though.
  - MilaM 5y ago
    I'm not saying that App Store distribution is useless. But I think vendors should have a choice. If Apple's system is so superior, they have little to worry about.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      The problem is, small developers won't have access to all the options - especially the good options - that the big companies would have. Currently, if you you manage to make a great app or game you have access to the exact same processes as the Epic or Microsoft.
      - pritambaral 5y ago
        > ... you have access to the exact same processes as the Epic or Microsoft. No you don't. Netflix and Amazon got special deals (before the whole Epic saga) [1] [2]. From partial waivers of the Apple Tax, to Apple-run editorial promotions, to bundling! "The emails could serve as evidence that for lucrative and powerful partners, Apple seems to be willing to make concessions." [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netflix-in-app-purchase-removal-emails https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netfli... [2]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-tv-prime-30-percent-developers https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-...
albertopv 5y ago
So why is Apple so scared by competition? Why denying other payment services at all?
- mrtksn 5y ago
  > Apple so scared by competition That's a loaded question. I don't think they are scared, it's just easier for them to collect their cut when the payments flow through their systems. It also enables them to do really good customer service and this helps them sell more iDevices. Purchasing, refunds, cancellations are all handled by Apple and are accessible from a single place and that makes for a superb customer experience. Let's not forget that companies are not charities. When they are charities, they register as such.
tsimionescu 5y ago
You make no sense. No one is arguing Apple should stop offering this service to developers. However, Apple shouldn't be allowed to monopolize the market for mobile apps (or "oligopolize" it together with Google, if you want to be extremely pedantic). There should be other options for these types of services. If Apple offers the best case for your business: Great! Keep using Apple. If someone else's business doesn't need availability in 175 countries (say, they are a taxi app operating in one city), perhaps they should be able to choose some other payment processor who won't demand 30% of every in-app purchase for offering them the exact same service as Stripe.
- hraedon 5y ago
  The problem is that they aren't offering the same service. The payment processor is not maintaining the ecosystem or doing anything outside of the relatively narrow scope of accepting payments and maybe dealing with taxes. Even if you think Apple's (and Google's, and Microsoft's, and so on) cut is too high, the idea that the entirety or even the bulk of the value that they offer is strictly in facilitating transactions is incorrect.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    > The payment processor is not maintaining the ecosystem There is good historical precedent to believe that this "service" is approximately 0 in value: the Windows desktop market (in its heyday). People were making money selling software to consumers on Windows without Microsoft doing anything to "maintain the ecosystem" other then developing their OS. So, the approximate value of the service Apple offers to businesses except payment processing, taxes, etc, is 0, which is approximately how much Apple should be paid if someone is using Stripe instead of Apple for payment processing.

by mrtksn 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

> you see multi billion corporations pretending to be advocating for the little guy. And they are. The little guys won't stand up to 30% of their gross taken but the big guys can and do. As a result after all the lawsuits have run their course Apple will be charging a much lower fee in the hopes of regaining their payment processing marketshare.

mrtksn 5y ago
How do you decide that %30 breaks the business but %15 is fine? Can I see your math please?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  This is not an argument made in good faith so I will ignore it.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Please don't ignore, I'm curious how I will not stand a chance at %30 but it's fine at %15. I want to know if this is your gut feeling or do you know something concrete. Thanks.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      I just look at what other payment service providers charge, they are between 1 and 5% based on volume, risk, transaction size. There is plenty of competition in the payment processing space. When you take the card companies' cut into account the fees are even lower for the transaction processing.
      - simondotau 5y ago
        Suggesting that what Apple does is equivalent to a payment processor is ridiculous. I suggest looking at Epic v Apple and how that argument went down in court. It was embarrassing to witness.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, agreed they are more like a mob running amok in a neighborhood but for the moment I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and looking at it purely as a transaction processor. I wonder how all of those defending Apple in this thread would respond if they jacked up the prices to say 75%. And why stop there?
        simondotau 5y ago
        I was hoping for a serious conversation.
      - mrtksn 5y ago
        How do you pay your taxes in UK, Turkey, Poland, USA, Japan, China, Australia and the rest of the 175 countries? How do you handle the regulatory requirements in each country and how do you navigate through the trade agreements?
        jacquesm 5y ago
        If you don't know the answers to these questions, why are you even active in this thread? I've been running an international business for a couple of decades and this has never been a problem at all.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Do you think that a 99% tax/commission would be fine? If not, how do you decide that 99% breaks the business, but 30% is fine? The answer of course is that different businesses have different margins. For some, even paying 99% commission to Apple would not break the business, as they have such great margins that even getting 1% of each sale would still leave them profitable. For others, even a 1% commission is too much, as they have such low margins even losing 1% of sales price makes them unprofitable. For any set price, some business models are excluded from the App Store, for better or for worse.

harshitaneja 5y ago

This 15% happened after all the outrage. Yes, all these mega corps don't care about the little guy but apple allowing third party options doesn't take away from their ability to continue to provide the services to developers who see value in apple's payment services.

mrtksn 5y ago
Are you a developer? Can I see your apps? I'm curios about your business model where selling coins or unlocking premium features at %30 commission instead of %15 breaks your business to the point that incorporating in 175 countries is more desirable.
- harshitaneja 5y ago
  I develop. No, 30% doesn't break my business majorly because my business model is not around app sales but I agree with your point that for most 15 and 30 won't break the business. But you are presenting a false dichotomy. Why are we assuming if apple doesn't offer these services, a third party won't as well? And I am not proposing that apple stop offering its payment and other distribution services but rather that third parties be allowed to do the same.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    There's nothing desirable in dealing with multiple 3rd parties to reach your customers instead of one that is essentially providing equal service at equal price to (almost)everyone.
    - harshitaneja 5y ago
      And I am not advocating that any one takes away that from you, just for us to have a choice.
    - pritambaral 5y ago
      > providing ... service The mafia also provides services. You don't just pay them and get nothing in return. Of course, there, as here, you really have no choice but to pay; and to pay ridiculously inflated rates. > ... at equal price Not true. Apple's price is zero. Sucks if you're competing with them, then. Maybe we should all be thankful Apple at-least let's you compete, even if with a handicap. Unlike the mafia.

MilaM 5y ago

And yet somehow indie devs have managed to sell software for macOS for decades before the invention of the Apple App Store. Only the larger software shops are atually running their own payment and licensing backends. Most use payment providers like Paddle or Fastspring. There are also other distribution channels like SetApp for expample. One thing that Apple has made very easy for devs are In-App Payments. But I think you can argue if that is such a good thing for Apple's customers.

mrtksn 5y ago
macOS app ecosystem isn't really thriving and the regulatory complexities arrived after the Internet matured. Something being possible isn't the same as being good. Selling 1000 copies at %30 commission(it tends to be around %50 once you ad stuff like VAT) is much better than selling 10 copies at %1 commission. I also think that from the users perspective it's much better to have one place where you manage all your payments/subscriptions/downloads etc. That can be solved through some kind of unified purchasing interface though.
- MilaM 5y ago
  I'm not saying that App Store distribution is useless. But I think vendors should have a choice. If Apple's system is so superior, they have little to worry about.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    The problem is, small developers won't have access to all the options - especially the good options - that the big companies would have. Currently, if you you manage to make a great app or game you have access to the exact same processes as the Epic or Microsoft.
    - pritambaral 5y ago
      > ... you have access to the exact same processes as the Epic or Microsoft. No you don't. Netflix and Amazon got special deals (before the whole Epic saga) [1] [2]. From partial waivers of the Apple Tax, to Apple-run editorial promotions, to bundling! "The emails could serve as evidence that for lucrative and powerful partners, Apple seems to be willing to make concessions." [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netflix-in-app-purchase-removal-emails https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/5/22421734/apple-epic-netfli... [2]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-tv-prime-30-percent-developers https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206400/apple-tax-amazon-...

albertopv 5y ago

So why is Apple so scared by competition? Why denying other payment services at all?

mrtksn 5y ago
> Apple so scared by competition That's a loaded question. I don't think they are scared, it's just easier for them to collect their cut when the payments flow through their systems. It also enables them to do really good customer service and this helps them sell more iDevices. Purchasing, refunds, cancellations are all handled by Apple and are accessible from a single place and that makes for a superb customer experience. Let's not forget that companies are not charities. When they are charities, they register as such.

tsimionescu 5y ago

You make no sense. No one is arguing Apple should stop offering this service to developers. However, Apple shouldn't be allowed to monopolize the market for mobile apps (or "oligopolize" it together with Google, if you want to be extremely pedantic). There should be other options for these types of services. If Apple offers the best case for your business: Great! Keep using Apple. If someone else's business doesn't need availability in 175 countries (say, they are a taxi app operating in one city), perhaps they should be able to choose some other payment processor who won't demand 30% of every in-app purchase for offering them the exact same service as Stripe.

hraedon 5y ago
The problem is that they aren't offering the same service. The payment processor is not maintaining the ecosystem or doing anything outside of the relatively narrow scope of accepting payments and maybe dealing with taxes. Even if you think Apple's (and Google's, and Microsoft's, and so on) cut is too high, the idea that the entirety or even the bulk of the value that they offer is strictly in facilitating transactions is incorrect.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  > The payment processor is not maintaining the ecosystem There is good historical precedent to believe that this "service" is approximately 0 in value: the Windows desktop market (in its heyday). People were making money selling software to consumers on Windows without Microsoft doing anything to "maintain the ecosystem" other then developing their OS. So, the approximate value of the service Apple offers to businesses except payment processing, taxes, etc, is 0, which is approximately how much Apple should be paid if someone is using Stripe instead of Apple for payment processing.