7 ms·

Yep, and the corollary effect of living in a non-democratic country is that the political discourse is far more intelligent, because they're NOT trying to appea

by _xnmw 5y ago

Yep, and the corollary effect of living in a non-democratic country is that the political discourse is far more intelligent, because they're NOT trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Over the past few years I learned Russian and started watching Russian/Ukrainian popular TV and following political writers on all ends of the spectrum. Yes the media environment in Russia is far more authoritarian. But like a tightly-knit academic community, it is also far more intelligent. The nuance and the depth of discourse found on the average popular Russian political talk show (even state channels like Russia 1) is far beyond anything I have ever seen in America, with the exception of some independent podcasters and niche communities like Hacker News and academic think tanks. And the Russian elite lament this[1] because they cannot engage their American counterparts as peers, everything has to be rewritten in the language of CNN/Fox even during high-level state negotiations. [1] https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2022/01/20/anthony-blinken-and-the-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-biden-administration/ https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2022/01/20/anthony-blinken-and-t...

airstrike 5y ago
I mean, leaving propaganda issues aside for a moment, you still have a sample size of two. I'm not sure that qualifies as data.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zozbot234 5y ago
You know that the U.S. too (and the West more generally, of course) has "tightly-knit academic communities" to discuss things such as the concerns that might come up in high-level state negotiations? In fact, the broad community of "open source intelligence" almost invariably has a markedly better handle on those issues than high-profile parts of USG that ought to theoretically benefit from secrecy and non-public info - despite common claims to the contrary!
- _xnmw 5y ago
  Yes exactly, that was my point. High quality political analysis is niche in the US, but it is more mainstream in Russia.
- smugglerFlynn 5y ago
  More intelligent does not mean more correct. The way I read OP is that level of discussion among mass population seems to be more intelligent. In my opinion, even if this hypothesis is correct, these ‘more intelligent’ discussions try to build upon inherently two-dimensional authoritarian picture, with carefully controlled inputs. Results of these discussions have very little touch with actual reality. It’s like existing in parallel reality.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I work on the theory that Fox News is a result of lack of democracy in the USA. To give one example, the common complaints about the coastal elites and metropolitans. Its harder to get away with that if you have a democratic system that counts peoples votes since those groups include a lot of people. By your theory, the political conversation should be worst in the countries ranked most democratic, which I don't feel fits the facts as well as the opposite. https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/ https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/
- _xnmw 5y ago
  > By your theory, the political conversation should be worst in the countries ranked most democratic, which I don't feel fits the facts as well as the opposite. I didn't say the political discourse was "worse", I said it appeals to the lowest common denominator. The crowds are finicky and have a short attention span, but sometimes they may happen to be correct. And sometimes they're not.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    Right, so the political discussion in New Zealand, Sweden etc. appeals to the lowest common denominator even more, because they are more democratic than the US? I don't think that's true.
pfraze 5y ago
Yeah, I don’t buy it. I especially don’t buy that link. Blaming American’s concerns about an invasion of Ukraine on a lack of intellectualism is embarrassingly weak tea.
- _xnmw 5y ago
  Lack of intellectualism in the American political discourse is a common refrain even among the American left, not to mention the rest of the world, after becoming the laughing stock of the world during the Trump era. Of course this does not mean that American soft power was decreasing, Tyler Cowen (the right-leaning writer at Marginal Revolution) would argue exactly the opposite, but still, intellectualism being relegated to the sidelines and niche communities is a serious concern. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-19/woke-movement-is-global-and-america-should-be-mostly-proud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-19/woke-m...
modo_mario 5y ago
Why does the author pull up Nord stream2 as important to the German economy considering there is no need for increased capacity only a Russian incentive to take away the cards of Ukraine and such? Other than that the author makes a boatload of assumptions. South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea, Nagarno karabakh, etc in recent memory but somehow he believes the Americans would not consider anything close based on this conjecture?
pseudalopex 5y ago
I don't think Russian state TV insulting past and present NATO and US leaders proves nuance, depth, or belief.

by _xnmw 5y ago

airstrike 5y ago

I mean, leaving propaganda issues aside for a moment, you still have a sample size of two. I'm not sure that qualifies as data.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zozbot234 5y ago

You know that the U.S. too (and the West more generally, of course) has "tightly-knit academic communities" to discuss things such as the concerns that might come up in high-level state negotiations? In fact, the broad community of "open source intelligence" almost invariably has a markedly better handle on those issues than high-profile parts of USG that ought to theoretically benefit from secrecy and non-public info - despite common claims to the contrary!

_xnmw 5y ago
Yes exactly, that was my point. High quality political analysis is niche in the US, but it is more mainstream in Russia.
smugglerFlynn 5y ago
More intelligent does not mean more correct. The way I read OP is that level of discussion among mass population seems to be more intelligent. In my opinion, even if this hypothesis is correct, these ‘more intelligent’ discussions try to build upon inherently two-dimensional authoritarian picture, with carefully controlled inputs. Results of these discussions have very little touch with actual reality. It’s like existing in parallel reality.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I work on the theory that Fox News is a result of lack of democracy in the USA. To give one example, the common complaints about the coastal elites and metropolitans. Its harder to get away with that if you have a democratic system that counts peoples votes since those groups include a lot of people. By your theory, the political conversation should be worst in the countries ranked most democratic, which I don't feel fits the facts as well as the opposite. https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/ https://www.eiu.com/n/campaigns/democracy-index-2020/

_xnmw 5y ago
> By your theory, the political conversation should be worst in the countries ranked most democratic, which I don't feel fits the facts as well as the opposite. I didn't say the political discourse was "worse", I said it appeals to the lowest common denominator. The crowds are finicky and have a short attention span, but sometimes they may happen to be correct. And sometimes they're not.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Right, so the political discussion in New Zealand, Sweden etc. appeals to the lowest common denominator even more, because they are more democratic than the US? I don't think that's true.

pfraze 5y ago

Yeah, I don’t buy it. I especially don’t buy that link. Blaming American’s concerns about an invasion of Ukraine on a lack of intellectualism is embarrassingly weak tea.

_xnmw 5y ago
Lack of intellectualism in the American political discourse is a common refrain even among the American left, not to mention the rest of the world, after becoming the laughing stock of the world during the Trump era. Of course this does not mean that American soft power was decreasing, Tyler Cowen (the right-leaning writer at Marginal Revolution) would argue exactly the opposite, but still, intellectualism being relegated to the sidelines and niche communities is a serious concern. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-19/woke-movement-is-global-and-america-should-be-mostly-proud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-09-19/woke-m...

modo_mario 5y ago

Why does the author pull up Nord stream2 as important to the German economy considering there is no need for increased capacity only a Russian incentive to take away the cards of Ukraine and such? Other than that the author makes a boatload of assumptions. South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea, Nagarno karabakh, etc in recent memory but somehow he believes the Americans would not consider anything close based on this conjecture?

pseudalopex 5y ago

I don't think Russian state TV insulting past and present NATO and US leaders proves nuance, depth, or belief.