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Cool. Most people aren't given a life that allows them to just make 250k if they want to. As a programmer, tech workers are the laziest people around but incred

Cool. Most people aren't given a life that allows them to just make 250k if they want to. As a programmer, tech workers are the laziest people around but incredibly overpaid. The people making 1/4 your pay are busting their asses harder than we can imagine.

noduerme 5y ago
I know exactly how hard they're busting ass - I was a cab driver, bus boy, waiter, bartender and minimum-wage graphic designer before I was a coder. It's not those people I'm worried about. They're all learning more as they go along. It's the ones who disdain work. And use incoherent political talking points to justify laziness and being supported by their parents. They have no pride. [edit] It's also absolutely natural to me, and a sign of vigor in America, that I should have started at minimum wage in the service industry and now command $200/hr. in my 40s. And it's natural to me that other people should go through the same process. It's good for them. It was good for me. It teaches you hard work and humility; being poor teaches you the value of a dollar. This is the only country in the world where that has been possible for generation after generation. My grandparents were immigrants who came to the US with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Most of my colleagues are of other races, and their parents and grandparents were immigrants too. My grandpa died with $1M or so in savings. This was not a green light to fuck off and not work. It was a dire warning that I had to get a job at 14. So it's not like "some people" auto-magically have this incredible privilege of making $250k a year, you have to work for it, and that's what's expected of you in this country. People everywhere else in the world desperately want the chance to do the shit jobs that our kids think they're too good to do. That's a parenting problem. A messaging problem. A civilizational problem. [edit2] >> most people aren't given a life This is an incredibly offensive thing to say to someone if you don't know the specifics of their life. I kind of ignored it, but I shouldn't have. It betrays a very specific flaw in your thinking. You assume that everyone who has things must have had those things given to them. Is that what your parents told you? Is that what you tell yourself when you don't feel like working harder? That everyone else was just given what they have? That just means you were brought up with a poor work ethic. Blaming people who work harder than you or even people who were lucky and born rich doesn't get you anywhere. Good; stay in a gutter, but don't pretend to preach to people who put in the time.
- mgh2 5y ago
  Agreed with most of your post until the end - was being American not given? Surely your ancestors worked for it, but most jobs you are not even qualified for if you are not American (what you get for granted) I think you are falling into the fallacy of hard work (which is a responsibility and a must), failing to recognize that these opportunities were given to you in the 1st place, which you rightfully justified with a good work ethic after the fact. The point is a lot of people will not get a chance, even if they busted their asses. With this said, laziness is not an excuse either so I agree that the anti-work youth sentiment is a virus for economy and the entire country.
JacobThreeThree 5y ago
>tech workers are the laziest people around but incredibly overpaid Wage-fixing cartels aside, tech workers are in high demand and are therefore paid exactly what they're worth.
apatters 5y ago
He said he DOESN'T make 250k. He said he and his non-programmer gf make much less than that combined. And yet they're still doing just fine. My post has numbers. So does his. They're earnest attempts to show that the numbers can and do work. You on the other hand, are spitting out one exaggeration after another in bad faith. No, you don't need to move to rural Nebraska to find cheap rent. No, not all tech workers are lazy. Some of them settle for that shitty commute which you call a dealbreaker. Take a hard look at your attitude.
- noduerme 5y ago
  >> Some of them settle for that shitty commute which you call a dealbreaker Appreciate the support. Also, I did my time as a junior code-monkey in an office with a miserable commute and a tiny half cubicle, and I learned a ton from it. Taking that job didn't stop me from becoming independent later; I just watched what my bosses were doing very carefully when they interacted with clients and realized I could do it at least as well as they did, and that propelled me to doing my own things. It was actually a necessary experience. My little brother disdained hard work most of his life. He dragged through college for six years to get an undergrad degree (I dropped out after year one). He just got a real estate license. That was the hardest he's worked ever; and I think he's grown because of it. He still has no real work, but he's got two kids now to support. His life has grown a lot harder than mine now; but mine was a lot harder than his for the first 30 years or so. No bad blood or anything. But I do see how funny it is when people call something "privilege" when really, they're privileged to think they don't have to do the hard part themselves. Doing the hard part is actually the good part of life. The saddest thing about the anti-work movement is that they're missing the experiences that come with committing to something shitty and moving up. Maybe my gen puts too much emphasis on work as a marker of identity; I'm not immune to that criticism. But if you don't even try or you truly believe that the fact that the whole thing being rigged gives you cover to tune out (and yes, it was always rigged) then on what grounds can you lodge a serious complaint against the rest of us?
- vba616 5y ago
  >Some of them settle for that shitty commute Perhaps some people don't think a 10 minute commute is possible either because they don't think that a city with a 10 minute radius is a real city, or they think living close to a highway implies an undesirable neighborhood. Also, there is the option to commute out to the suburbs in a major metro area where the commute inward is hell. Plenty of office parks and such that people work at.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>The people making 1/4 your pay are busting their asses harder than we can imagine. I obviously haven't worked in every job there is but in my twenties up to early 30s I worked as: busboy dishwasher painter janitor day laborer construction worker Now it's true this was not all the time, I had significant breaks for school etc. and obviously my body today could not handle what it handled then, but still my experience is that programming when it is going bad is much worse than anything I had with those jobs. Things going bad as programmer can just be when you are dealing with a hard to solve problem and it grinds you down over days, but also you can end up in places that for some reason everything goes worse (sure I had bosses who were jerks when I was working, especially as a day laborer, but I never had jobs where the whole processes of the company seemed geared to making everything harder like you can sometimes encounter programming) The physical work made me tired, but never affected me mentally. Mean bosses didn't matter too much, just keep the head down do the work and get out of there at the same hour every day. And sometimes programming can also be tiring, sitting down all day at the computer. So I mean I believe that I can imagine to some reasonable degree of accuracy how hard people making 1/4 what I do are busting their asses, but it seems that what I imagine must be significantly less than what you imagine? on edit: obviously my imagining here is limited to the U.S and Western Europe.

noduerme 5y ago

I know exactly how hard they're busting ass - I was a cab driver, bus boy, waiter, bartender and minimum-wage graphic designer before I was a coder. It's not those people I'm worried about. They're all learning more as they go along. It's the ones who disdain work. And use incoherent political talking points to justify laziness and being supported by their parents. They have no pride. [edit] It's also absolutely natural to me, and a sign of vigor in America, that I should have started at minimum wage in the service industry and now command $200/hr. in my 40s. And it's natural to me that other people should go through the same process. It's good for them. It was good for me. It teaches you hard work and humility; being poor teaches you the value of a dollar. This is the only country in the world where that has been possible for generation after generation. My grandparents were immigrants who came to the US with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Most of my colleagues are of other races, and their parents and grandparents were immigrants too. My grandpa died with $1M or so in savings. This was not a green light to fuck off and not work. It was a dire warning that I had to get a job at 14. So it's not like "some people" auto-magically have this incredible privilege of making $250k a year, you have to work for it, and that's what's expected of you in this country. People everywhere else in the world desperately want the chance to do the shit jobs that our kids think they're too good to do. That's a parenting problem. A messaging problem. A civilizational problem. [edit2] >> most people aren't given a life This is an incredibly offensive thing to say to someone if you don't know the specifics of their life. I kind of ignored it, but I shouldn't have. It betrays a very specific flaw in your thinking. You assume that everyone who has things must have had those things given to them. Is that what your parents told you? Is that what you tell yourself when you don't feel like working harder? That everyone else was just given what they have? That just means you were brought up with a poor work ethic. Blaming people who work harder than you or even people who were lucky and born rich doesn't get you anywhere. Good; stay in a gutter, but don't pretend to preach to people who put in the time.

mgh2 5y ago
Agreed with most of your post until the end - was being American not given? Surely your ancestors worked for it, but most jobs you are not even qualified for if you are not American (what you get for granted) I think you are falling into the fallacy of hard work (which is a responsibility and a must), failing to recognize that these opportunities were given to you in the 1st place, which you rightfully justified with a good work ethic after the fact. The point is a lot of people will not get a chance, even if they busted their asses. With this said, laziness is not an excuse either so I agree that the anti-work youth sentiment is a virus for economy and the entire country.

JacobThreeThree 5y ago

>tech workers are the laziest people around but incredibly overpaid Wage-fixing cartels aside, tech workers are in high demand and are therefore paid exactly what they're worth.

apatters 5y ago

He said he DOESN'T make 250k. He said he and his non-programmer gf make much less than that combined. And yet they're still doing just fine. My post has numbers. So does his. They're earnest attempts to show that the numbers can and do work. You on the other hand, are spitting out one exaggeration after another in bad faith. No, you don't need to move to rural Nebraska to find cheap rent. No, not all tech workers are lazy. Some of them settle for that shitty commute which you call a dealbreaker. Take a hard look at your attitude.

noduerme 5y ago
>> Some of them settle for that shitty commute which you call a dealbreaker Appreciate the support. Also, I did my time as a junior code-monkey in an office with a miserable commute and a tiny half cubicle, and I learned a ton from it. Taking that job didn't stop me from becoming independent later; I just watched what my bosses were doing very carefully when they interacted with clients and realized I could do it at least as well as they did, and that propelled me to doing my own things. It was actually a necessary experience. My little brother disdained hard work most of his life. He dragged through college for six years to get an undergrad degree (I dropped out after year one). He just got a real estate license. That was the hardest he's worked ever; and I think he's grown because of it. He still has no real work, but he's got two kids now to support. His life has grown a lot harder than mine now; but mine was a lot harder than his for the first 30 years or so. No bad blood or anything. But I do see how funny it is when people call something "privilege" when really, they're privileged to think they don't have to do the hard part themselves. Doing the hard part is actually the good part of life. The saddest thing about the anti-work movement is that they're missing the experiences that come with committing to something shitty and moving up. Maybe my gen puts too much emphasis on work as a marker of identity; I'm not immune to that criticism. But if you don't even try or you truly believe that the fact that the whole thing being rigged gives you cover to tune out (and yes, it was always rigged) then on what grounds can you lodge a serious complaint against the rest of us?
vba616 5y ago
>Some of them settle for that shitty commute Perhaps some people don't think a 10 minute commute is possible either because they don't think that a city with a 10 minute radius is a real city, or they think living close to a highway implies an undesirable neighborhood. Also, there is the option to commute out to the suburbs in a major metro area where the commute inward is hell. Plenty of office parks and such that people work at.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>The people making 1/4 your pay are busting their asses harder than we can imagine. I obviously haven't worked in every job there is but in my twenties up to early 30s I worked as: busboy dishwasher painter janitor day laborer construction worker Now it's true this was not all the time, I had significant breaks for school etc. and obviously my body today could not handle what it handled then, but still my experience is that programming when it is going bad is much worse than anything I had with those jobs. Things going bad as programmer can just be when you are dealing with a hard to solve problem and it grinds you down over days, but also you can end up in places that for some reason everything goes worse (sure I had bosses who were jerks when I was working, especially as a day laborer, but I never had jobs where the whole processes of the company seemed geared to making everything harder like you can sometimes encounter programming) The physical work made me tired, but never affected me mentally. Mean bosses didn't matter too much, just keep the head down do the work and get out of there at the same hour every day. And sometimes programming can also be tiring, sitting down all day at the computer. So I mean I believe that I can imagine to some reasonable degree of accuracy how hard people making 1/4 what I do are busting their asses, but it seems that what I imagine must be significantly less than what you imagine? on edit: obviously my imagining here is limited to the U.S and Western Europe.