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> Meanwhile, the median kindergarten and elementary school teacher—a famously non-lucrative career among those requiring university education—earns 60k accordin

> Meanwhile, the median kindergarten and elementary school teacher—a famously non-lucrative career among those requiring university education—earns 60k according to the same resource. It's only famously "non-lucrative" because it is to the benefit of those in that profession to say so. When it costs >$15K a year to send a kid to public school, which is more than the average private school, and this cost has tripled since the 1960s [1], public school teachers have to lean on something. That "something" clearly is not competence, so martyrdom and lies about "budget cuts" will have to do. Median household income in the U.S. is $67K, so jobs that pay 56K are very good. [1] https://www.cato.org/commentary/no-we-havent-defunded-education-years https://www.cato.org/commentary/no-we-havent-defunded-educat...

kelnos 5y ago
> It's only famously "non-lucrative" because it is to the benefit of those in that profession to say so. I have several teachers in my extended family and circle of friends, and they would definitely disagree with that statement. > Median household income in the U.S. is $67K, so jobs that pay 56K are very good. Only if you have more than one person in the household working. I know that's a lot more common than it was 50 years ago, but is it a majority these days? If not, I would not consider making below median to be "very good". Of course, picking teachers as the poster child for this argument that university-educated jobs don't pay that much is a bit silly; there are plenty of jobs that required a degree that pay much better than a teaching job.
- abernard1 5y ago
  > but is it a majority these days? Very much so. Statistics from the Census [1]: The proportion of dual earner married couples more than doubled between 1960 and 2000, increasing from 25 percent to 60 percent (Pew Research Center, 2015) So, not only is this close to median income, but 60% of workers have to have two people to achieve it. And teachers work 3/4 of the year (annual amortized salary would be much higher), and have unassailable pensions. The reasons for this, of course, are that 3% of all workers are teachers, school board elections are held on odd (or off) years with low turnout, and controversial legislation is put in the docket on those elections. It is money for votes and it has been for a long time. [1] https://www2.census.gov/ces/wp/2019/CES-WP-19-19.pdf https://www2.census.gov/ces/wp/2019/CES-WP-19-19.pdf
  - danaris 5y ago
    > And teachers work 3/4 of the year This is a common misconception. Teachers teach students in the classroom as part of regular instruction for 3/4 of the year. The vast, vast majority of teachers do a lot of work both during the summer and on evenings and weekends to prepare for that teaching, including lesson planning, grading, teaching summer school, supervising extracurriculars, and even coaching school sports in many cases. And any teacher getting hired now (or, in fact, within the last few decades) doesn't get what you'd think of as an "unassailable pension", at least not in most places. I think that NY State would generally be considered to be one of the more teacher-friendly places, and the last of the "Tier I" retirees here—those whose pensions cover basically their full final salary—are already either retiring or on their way to it. The idea that teachers are overpaid is bullshit propaganda.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Teachers may not be overpaid on average, but there's way too many of them that are badly underqualified, do not have a proper education in their specific subjects (and let's face it, it's not like a degree in "Education" has much useful content, either) and just do a very poor job of supporting their students. I'm quite willing to believe that the very best teachers should be paid no less than any highly-skilled STEM professional, but the institutional arrangements in K12 education make it unfeasible to spot these effective teachers and pay them what they're truly worth.

kelnos 5y ago

> It's only famously "non-lucrative" because it is to the benefit of those in that profession to say so. I have several teachers in my extended family and circle of friends, and they would definitely disagree with that statement. > Median household income in the U.S. is $67K, so jobs that pay 56K are very good. Only if you have more than one person in the household working. I know that's a lot more common than it was 50 years ago, but is it a majority these days? If not, I would not consider making below median to be "very good". Of course, picking teachers as the poster child for this argument that university-educated jobs don't pay that much is a bit silly; there are plenty of jobs that required a degree that pay much better than a teaching job.

abernard1 5y ago
> but is it a majority these days? Very much so. Statistics from the Census [1]: The proportion of dual earner married couples more than doubled between 1960 and 2000, increasing from 25 percent to 60 percent (Pew Research Center, 2015) So, not only is this close to median income, but 60% of workers have to have two people to achieve it. And teachers work 3/4 of the year (annual amortized salary would be much higher), and have unassailable pensions. The reasons for this, of course, are that 3% of all workers are teachers, school board elections are held on odd (or off) years with low turnout, and controversial legislation is put in the docket on those elections. It is money for votes and it has been for a long time. [1] https://www2.census.gov/ces/wp/2019/CES-WP-19-19.pdf https://www2.census.gov/ces/wp/2019/CES-WP-19-19.pdf
- danaris 5y ago
  > And teachers work 3/4 of the year This is a common misconception. Teachers teach students in the classroom as part of regular instruction for 3/4 of the year. The vast, vast majority of teachers do a lot of work both during the summer and on evenings and weekends to prepare for that teaching, including lesson planning, grading, teaching summer school, supervising extracurriculars, and even coaching school sports in many cases. And any teacher getting hired now (or, in fact, within the last few decades) doesn't get what you'd think of as an "unassailable pension", at least not in most places. I think that NY State would generally be considered to be one of the more teacher-friendly places, and the last of the "Tier I" retirees here—those whose pensions cover basically their full final salary—are already either retiring or on their way to it. The idea that teachers are overpaid is bullshit propaganda.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Teachers may not be overpaid on average, but there's way too many of them that are badly underqualified, do not have a proper education in their specific subjects (and let's face it, it's not like a degree in "Education" has much useful content, either) and just do a very poor job of supporting their students. I'm quite willing to believe that the very best teachers should be paid no less than any highly-skilled STEM professional, but the institutional arrangements in K12 education make it unfeasible to spot these effective teachers and pay them what they're truly worth.