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Again, that's your perception of the world which is deluded by your ignorance of others. Also, you ignored the rest of my post to further live in your delusion

Again, that's your perception of the world which is deluded by your ignorance of others. Also, you ignored the rest of my post to further live in your delusion of a racist enemy to play hero against.

mikeyouse 5y ago
I (loosely) know plenty of people who fly the confederate flag -- they're all awful shitty racists. Including some of my family members. They all claim it's for heritage reasons as well (which is weird because we're in "the north"). The rest of your post was some anecdotal observation that you've never seen a Gadsden flag next to a confederate one. Here's the Gadsden flown by secessionists in Civil War Georgia fighting to maintain and expand slavery: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?maxwidth=650&autorotate=false&quality=78&format=webp https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?max... Here's the Alabama secession flag (which they flew because they wanted to keep slavery): https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif In fact, the Gadsden symbol was so ubiquitous as a symbol of maintaning slavery, they had political 'cartoons' of Eagles dismembering snakes in Union papers: https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/550761/cwe_008_03.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/1... It actually made it into the Battle Hymn of the Republic as well, > "I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel…Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel." Here's both with a Swastika being flown in Charlottesville before the Unite the Right rally: https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Charlottesville_Unite_the_Right_Rally_35780274914_crop.jpg https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/C... Here's one from Milwaukee from someone protesting the initial lockdowns in 2020: https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-d025-41ec-826f-d46b103701d2-IMG_1531_1.JPG?width=1320&height=990&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-... Hope that's helpful background into why many people associate the two flags.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  > They all claim it's for heritage reasons But you know mindread better than what everyone else is thinking. I know plenty of people, plenty of music, plenty of shows (general lee), plenty of culture that involves the confederate flag without racism.
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    You don't see the irony in how you started off saying there's no relationship between the Gadsden flag and the Confederate flag (implying the former shouldn't be tainted by the latter) -- and then moved to a full-throated defense of the confederate flag? Anyway, if you can't see it, not sure what to tell you. Cheers.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      I didn't move on, in the same post I both refuted your link of the two and informed you the reasons people fly both, neither for racism. It's a flag. You aren't making the world a better place by crying imaginary racism. Go crusade something else to feel better. You're one of those people who need religion but think you're too smart for it.
- enchiridion 5y ago
  Wow that is a well researched position, thanks for sharing. First of all I do think think all confederate flags should be retired. The confederate flags represent an enemy the US defeated. No American should feel pride about those flags. However, you’ve provided image links with no context but your own. I am not sure what any of those images represented back in the time. I’m also having a hard time finding information to support your position. Additionally, the Alabama link looks like a bush maybe? Definitely do not see the Gadsden iconography, but maybe it’s just a bad scan. I will say the Battle Hymn link is tenuous at best. The timber rattle snake on the flag is representative of the original rebellious 13 colonies (on the wiki if you want to read more). The rattlers are really only dangerous if stepped on, hence the phrase on the flag. In the hymn, “Crushing the snake under heal” has religious background, and represents extinguishing evil. To me the flag represents that the people of this country have the right to oppose the government. That is a fundamental ideal in the US. In that context, it makes sense why some extreme fringe groups would co-opt the flag when opposing the government. However, that does not mean the flag represents extremist views to the vast majority of people who like to fly it. Finally, my original comment said it was disingenuous to associate the two so closely like you did. At least say “and” instead of “/“. Someone not so familiar might assume they are literally the same thing.
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    The South co-opted the flag as a similar symbol of "opposing the government" like the Revolutionaries had, but in their case it was to oppose the abolition of slavery. Here's a better pic of the Alabama flag -- it's a cotton plant with a snake under it and the phrase "noli me tangere" (touch me not): https://i.imgur.com/UIUZM4p.png https://i.imgur.com/UIUZM4p.png Here's South Carolina's secession flag: https://i.imgur.com/14Yuw3G.png https://i.imgur.com/14Yuw3G.png Another Georgia one that General Sherman captured: https://i.imgur.com/Hk41Xy7.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Hk41Xy7.jpg Explicitly spelling it out with the serpent imagery "Slave states ... the only way of preserving our slave property [and] our liberty, is a union with each other": https://i.imgur.com/iHkVl0H.png https://i.imgur.com/iHkVl0H.png Union propaganda, "Down with the traitors serpent flag": https://i.imgur.com/A0wKKZx.png https://i.imgur.com/A0wKKZx.png Union envelopes: https://i.imgur.com/g7ljHSf.png https://i.imgur.com/g7ljHSf.png KKK adopting it to protest civil rights: https://i.imgur.com/uDq7IZ4.png https://i.imgur.com/uDq7IZ4.png Flag proudly flies on the homepage of the largest white supremacist site on the internet: https://i.imgur.com/WWYL6T9.png https://i.imgur.com/WWYL6T9.png 100% of confederate flag rallies will have Gadsdens flying and ~100% of extremists who attack the government will fly it too (From the Vegas killings: https://i.imgur.com/yHWJCM8.png https://i.imgur.com/yHWJCM8.png, at the home of one of the extremists who plotted to execute Michigan's governor: https://www.mlive.com/resizer/OrmrIm147a1JxQUsKvBPGOdTt2U=/950x0/smart/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal/public/UQM4GYIB25FZ3EKZQW3COHUSEA.jpg https://www.mlive.com/resizer/OrmrIm147a1JxQUsKvBPGOdTt2U=/9..., at the Unite the Right rally: https://i.imgur.com/EG6roQa.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EG6roQa.jpg) It's fine, you can fly whatever flag you want for whatever reason you want, just be aware that the literal worst people in the country are flying the same one and that it was the rallying symbol for slavers.

Again, that's your perception of the world which is deluded by your ignorance of others. Also, you ignored the rest of my post to further live in your delusion of a racist enemy to play hero against.

mikeyouse 5y ago

I (loosely) know plenty of people who fly the confederate flag -- they're all awful shitty racists. Including some of my family members. They all claim it's for heritage reasons as well (which is weird because we're in "the north"). The rest of your post was some anecdotal observation that you've never seen a Gadsden flag next to a confederate one. Here's the Gadsden flown by secessionists in Civil War Georgia fighting to maintain and expand slavery: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?maxwidth=650&autorotate=false&quality=78&format=webp https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?max... Here's the Alabama secession flag (which they flew because they wanted to keep slavery): https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif In fact, the Gadsden symbol was so ubiquitous as a symbol of maintaning slavery, they had political 'cartoons' of Eagles dismembering snakes in Union papers: https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/550761/cwe_008_03.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/1... It actually made it into the Battle Hymn of the Republic as well, > "I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel…Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel." Here's both with a Swastika being flown in Charlottesville before the Unite the Right rally: https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Charlottesville_Unite_the_Right_Rally_35780274914_crop.jpg https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/C... Here's one from Milwaukee from someone protesting the initial lockdowns in 2020: https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-d025-41ec-826f-d46b103701d2-IMG_1531_1.JPG?width=1320&height=990&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-... Hope that's helpful background into why many people associate the two flags.

hunterb123 5y ago
> They all claim it's for heritage reasons But you know mindread better than what everyone else is thinking. I know plenty of people, plenty of music, plenty of shows (general lee), plenty of culture that involves the confederate flag without racism.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  You don't see the irony in how you started off saying there's no relationship between the Gadsden flag and the Confederate flag (implying the former shouldn't be tainted by the latter) -- and then moved to a full-throated defense of the confederate flag? Anyway, if you can't see it, not sure what to tell you. Cheers.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    I didn't move on, in the same post I both refuted your link of the two and informed you the reasons people fly both, neither for racism. It's a flag. You aren't making the world a better place by crying imaginary racism. Go crusade something else to feel better. You're one of those people who need religion but think you're too smart for it.
enchiridion 5y ago
Wow that is a well researched position, thanks for sharing. First of all I do think think all confederate flags should be retired. The confederate flags represent an enemy the US defeated. No American should feel pride about those flags. However, you’ve provided image links with no context but your own. I am not sure what any of those images represented back in the time. I’m also having a hard time finding information to support your position. Additionally, the Alabama link looks like a bush maybe? Definitely do not see the Gadsden iconography, but maybe it’s just a bad scan. I will say the Battle Hymn link is tenuous at best. The timber rattle snake on the flag is representative of the original rebellious 13 colonies (on the wiki if you want to read more). The rattlers are really only dangerous if stepped on, hence the phrase on the flag. In the hymn, “Crushing the snake under heal” has religious background, and represents extinguishing evil. To me the flag represents that the people of this country have the right to oppose the government. That is a fundamental ideal in the US. In that context, it makes sense why some extreme fringe groups would co-opt the flag when opposing the government. However, that does not mean the flag represents extremist views to the vast majority of people who like to fly it. Finally, my original comment said it was disingenuous to associate the two so closely like you did. At least say “and” instead of “/“. Someone not so familiar might assume they are literally the same thing.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  The South co-opted the flag as a similar symbol of "opposing the government" like the Revolutionaries had, but in their case it was to oppose the abolition of slavery. Here's a better pic of the Alabama flag -- it's a cotton plant with a snake under it and the phrase "noli me tangere" (touch me not): https://i.imgur.com/UIUZM4p.png https://i.imgur.com/UIUZM4p.png Here's South Carolina's secession flag: https://i.imgur.com/14Yuw3G.png https://i.imgur.com/14Yuw3G.png Another Georgia one that General Sherman captured: https://i.imgur.com/Hk41Xy7.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Hk41Xy7.jpg Explicitly spelling it out with the serpent imagery "Slave states ... the only way of preserving our slave property [and] our liberty, is a union with each other": https://i.imgur.com/iHkVl0H.png https://i.imgur.com/iHkVl0H.png Union propaganda, "Down with the traitors serpent flag": https://i.imgur.com/A0wKKZx.png https://i.imgur.com/A0wKKZx.png Union envelopes: https://i.imgur.com/g7ljHSf.png https://i.imgur.com/g7ljHSf.png KKK adopting it to protest civil rights: https://i.imgur.com/uDq7IZ4.png https://i.imgur.com/uDq7IZ4.png Flag proudly flies on the homepage of the largest white supremacist site on the internet: https://i.imgur.com/WWYL6T9.png https://i.imgur.com/WWYL6T9.png 100% of confederate flag rallies will have Gadsdens flying and ~100% of extremists who attack the government will fly it too (From the Vegas killings: https://i.imgur.com/yHWJCM8.png https://i.imgur.com/yHWJCM8.png, at the home of one of the extremists who plotted to execute Michigan's governor: https://www.mlive.com/resizer/OrmrIm147a1JxQUsKvBPGOdTt2U=/950x0/smart/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal/public/UQM4GYIB25FZ3EKZQW3COHUSEA.jpg https://www.mlive.com/resizer/OrmrIm147a1JxQUsKvBPGOdTt2U=/9..., at the Unite the Right rally: https://i.imgur.com/EG6roQa.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EG6roQa.jpg) It's fine, you can fly whatever flag you want for whatever reason you want, just be aware that the literal worst people in the country are flying the same one and that it was the rallying symbol for slavers.