6 ms·

Look, 53’ trailers illegally entering Manhattan is a problem. I’ll be the first to admit that. But if you think life on Manhattan is only possible because of a

Look, 53’ trailers illegally entering Manhattan is a problem. I’ll be the first to admit that. But if you think life on Manhattan is only possible because of a huge illegal trucking operation then I don’t know what to tell you. The US doesn’t have dense cities except NYC, so you may not realise this but rules against big trucks in dense cities are extremely common globally. I get that this offends you aesthetically and you therefore want to think the people of Paris and London and Munich and Hong Kong are miserable and starving because they don’t let trucks in. But that’s not true.

notch656a 5y ago
I acknowledge you're right, life is definitely possible without it. New Yorkers have decided to keep buying stuff brought on these trailers. You probably have too. People voted with their wallet and decided they would buy the goods that came in on the trailer. The reason is because it's just way more practical, and cost efficient, to go along with the standard the rest of the country is using. Until 1997 Hong Kong was a possession that functioned much like its own country. NYC is simply incomparable to this situation; NYC is less than 5% of the country. I'd also note the tariffs and regulations on goods coming into Hong Kong were way more liberal than NYC before the handoff, so Hong Kong as able to withstand some higher ground transportation cost than NY can withstand at same price.
- williamsmj 5y ago
  I'm going to say one more time: there are > 0 illegal 53' trailers in Manhattan, but not by much. It's incredibly hard to get a trailer onto the island. The tunnels aren't tall enough and only 2 of the 21 bridges allow 53' trailers (they are the entrance and exit to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Manhattan_Expressway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Manhattan_Expressway) at the far northern end (~170th St). The bridges are all controlled by Port Authority not NYPD. The trucks that end up on lower Manhattan are lost drivers, not making illegal deliveries to Target and Whole Foods. If the NYPD enforced the law _perfectly_ it would not be "unsafe" like you suggest. It would instead make almost no difference to the availability of goods on Manhattan. I figured you'd focus on HK specifically. I don't agree it's incomparable, but forget I mentioned it. Big trucks are banned from big cities all over the world. The police forces that enforce those bans are not all sat in their cars playing games on their phones like they do in NYC. And yet life goes on.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    I was mostly referring to 53' trailers that go into outer boroughs illegally, and then get shipped in by smaller trucks into Manhattan. Manhattan is still benefitting from these illegal trailers even when they don't go into Manhattan. I'd venture a great deal of goods in Manhattan come in this way. Basically all your examples of cities involve places where the nation's trucking industry expects their major cities and a large portion of the populace (or in HK case, basically the entire territory) to require these shorter trailers. This isn't comparable to the situation in the US, and the result is that for pragmatic reasons NYPD have turned a blind eye to a poorly workable regulation. And it becomes doubly unpragmatic when we already in a situation where trucker drivers are scarce even before having to split their approach in two (travel NYC compliant, or travel rest of nation compliant).
    - williamsmj 5y ago
      They could be illegally transferring loads to smaller trucks in the expensive outer boroughs, or legally in Westchester and NJ where land is cheaper. It makes no difference to my point, which is: There are almost no big trailers delivering goods to Manhattan. It works well, just like it works well all over the world. It allows people to move around more quickly and safely. It works well even though Manhattan is ~1% of the US population and doesn't dominate economically to the extent of some world cities. It's certainly not "unsafe" (?!) for the residents of Manhattan (a direct quote). I don't know what "unpragmatic" means when applied to a system that works. Banning big trucks from places where there isn't room and they get in the way is great. I hope they ban them in more places. I hope they ban anything bigger than a Transit van. I hope they transfer enforcement to a less corrupt, lazy, anti-city/pro-suburb agency than the NYPD. In short: big trucks in cities suck. I'm done.
      - notch656a 5y ago
        > It allows people to move around more quickly and safely. It works well even though Manhattan is ~1% of the US population and doesn't dominate economically to the extent of some world cities. >There are almost no big trailers delivering goods to Manhattan You keep focusing on Manhattan. We were talking about a regulation applying to NYC as a whole. If no one wants or finds it economical to take these trucks in, then the regulation isn't needed. Therefore you should be fine with deregulating truck length. >I don't know what "unpragmatic" means when applied to a system that works. A system that works so well, that people have to work around it, to the complaint of one New Yorker. >It's certainly not "unsafe" (?!) for the residents of Manhattan (a direct quote). An intentional misrepresentation, and modification of my quote; but nice that you cowardly run away "I'm done" after quoting me in this manner. > I hope they ban them in more places. I hope they ban anything bigger than a Transit van. You hope for a lot of odd things. I could hope you are banned from NYC, but instead of hoping bad things against people I'd rather just allow people to live and come in with the trailers that keep things simple and pragmatic for the trucking industry so truckers don't become an even rarer commodity at the expense of a few unusually fearful minority of New Yorkers.

notch656a 5y ago

I acknowledge you're right, life is definitely possible without it. New Yorkers have decided to keep buying stuff brought on these trailers. You probably have too. People voted with their wallet and decided they would buy the goods that came in on the trailer. The reason is because it's just way more practical, and cost efficient, to go along with the standard the rest of the country is using. Until 1997 Hong Kong was a possession that functioned much like its own country. NYC is simply incomparable to this situation; NYC is less than 5% of the country. I'd also note the tariffs and regulations on goods coming into Hong Kong were way more liberal than NYC before the handoff, so Hong Kong as able to withstand some higher ground transportation cost than NY can withstand at same price.

williamsmj 5y ago
I'm going to say one more time: there are > 0 illegal 53' trailers in Manhattan, but not by much. It's incredibly hard to get a trailer onto the island. The tunnels aren't tall enough and only 2 of the 21 bridges allow 53' trailers (they are the entrance and exit to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Manhattan_Expressway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Manhattan_Expressway) at the far northern end (~170th St). The bridges are all controlled by Port Authority not NYPD. The trucks that end up on lower Manhattan are lost drivers, not making illegal deliveries to Target and Whole Foods. If the NYPD enforced the law _perfectly_ it would not be "unsafe" like you suggest. It would instead make almost no difference to the availability of goods on Manhattan. I figured you'd focus on HK specifically. I don't agree it's incomparable, but forget I mentioned it. Big trucks are banned from big cities all over the world. The police forces that enforce those bans are not all sat in their cars playing games on their phones like they do in NYC. And yet life goes on.
- notch656a 5y ago
  I was mostly referring to 53' trailers that go into outer boroughs illegally, and then get shipped in by smaller trucks into Manhattan. Manhattan is still benefitting from these illegal trailers even when they don't go into Manhattan. I'd venture a great deal of goods in Manhattan come in this way. Basically all your examples of cities involve places where the nation's trucking industry expects their major cities and a large portion of the populace (or in HK case, basically the entire territory) to require these shorter trailers. This isn't comparable to the situation in the US, and the result is that for pragmatic reasons NYPD have turned a blind eye to a poorly workable regulation. And it becomes doubly unpragmatic when we already in a situation where trucker drivers are scarce even before having to split their approach in two (travel NYC compliant, or travel rest of nation compliant).
  - williamsmj 5y ago
    They could be illegally transferring loads to smaller trucks in the expensive outer boroughs, or legally in Westchester and NJ where land is cheaper. It makes no difference to my point, which is: There are almost no big trailers delivering goods to Manhattan. It works well, just like it works well all over the world. It allows people to move around more quickly and safely. It works well even though Manhattan is ~1% of the US population and doesn't dominate economically to the extent of some world cities. It's certainly not "unsafe" (?!) for the residents of Manhattan (a direct quote). I don't know what "unpragmatic" means when applied to a system that works. Banning big trucks from places where there isn't room and they get in the way is great. I hope they ban them in more places. I hope they ban anything bigger than a Transit van. I hope they transfer enforcement to a less corrupt, lazy, anti-city/pro-suburb agency than the NYPD. In short: big trucks in cities suck. I'm done.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      > It allows people to move around more quickly and safely. It works well even though Manhattan is ~1% of the US population and doesn't dominate economically to the extent of some world cities. >There are almost no big trailers delivering goods to Manhattan You keep focusing on Manhattan. We were talking about a regulation applying to NYC as a whole. If no one wants or finds it economical to take these trucks in, then the regulation isn't needed. Therefore you should be fine with deregulating truck length. >I don't know what "unpragmatic" means when applied to a system that works. A system that works so well, that people have to work around it, to the complaint of one New Yorker. >It's certainly not "unsafe" (?!) for the residents of Manhattan (a direct quote). An intentional misrepresentation, and modification of my quote; but nice that you cowardly run away "I'm done" after quoting me in this manner. > I hope they ban them in more places. I hope they ban anything bigger than a Transit van. You hope for a lot of odd things. I could hope you are banned from NYC, but instead of hoping bad things against people I'd rather just allow people to live and come in with the trailers that keep things simple and pragmatic for the trucking industry so truckers don't become an even rarer commodity at the expense of a few unusually fearful minority of New Yorkers.