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Let the surgeons know. Yes, compliance and knowing how to wear a mask has been an issue. That's not the same thing as "masks don't work." This is a random pla

Let the surgeons know. Yes, compliance and knowing how to wear a mask has been an issue. That's not the same thing as "masks don't work." This is a random place to put this, but I just want to point out that I think for the most part even mask wearing is not required anymore (unless you are sick, but why are you going anywhere sick?) Part of the reason I put it here is that I want to make sure it's understood that despite the fact I'm pretty pro-vax, pro-mask and generally supported the lockdowns at the time -- we're past all that for now with Omicron. Things are still a mess, and the facts on the ground could change, but I think it's important that everybody gets on the same page that we're moving on.

throwaway1777 5y ago
Sounds like we basically agree even though we are coming at it from different angles.
- altcognito 5y ago
  Not really. I'm saying masks work and mandates are necessary public health policy. Regardless of a mandate, people will do what they do even if it's not in their best interests, or in the interests of their loved ones, or the interests of their neighbors. They will smoke in public places, they will goto work sick, they will drive drunk. Frankly put, people can be jerks. So you put a mandate out there, and you do your best. Masks work. In areas where mask utilization is high, there is good air filtration and people follow distancing rules, the spread is slowed.
vondur 5y ago
Masks are still required where I live, yet we have some of the highest infection rates in the country. (Southern California)
wrp 5y ago
> Let the surgeons know. The surgeons already know. Since the 1990s, there has been a general movement away from using surgical masks in the OR, due to accumulating evidence that they have no effect. (For example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/)
- lejohnq 5y ago
  That link doesn’t indicate “accumulating evidence that they have no effect”, and the link explicitly states “it would be imprudent to recommend the removal of facemasks from surgery”. It is a literature review that didn’t find strong evidence for surgical mask effectiveness more because it hasn’t been researched deeply. And it notes that the absence of evidence does not indicate ineffectiveness of surgical masks, and rather a more significant research trial would have to be performed (and there were caveats to the feasibility of doing that as well). Specific quotes from that article: “What literature that is available on the subject tends to be dated with poorly explained methodology. There is also uncertainty over whether the results of such studies can be extrapolated to current surgical practice given the advent of new antiseptic techniques since they were completed.” “It is clear that more studies are required before any absolute conclusions can be drawn regarding the effectiveness or, indeed, ineffectiveness of surgical masks. The published literature does suggest that it may be reasonable to further examine the need for masks in contemporary surgical practice given the interests of comfort, budget constraints and potential ease of communication, although any such study would undoubtedly have to be large and well controlled to prove causality given the low event frequency of surgical site infections.” “It is important not to construe an absence of evidence for effectiveness with evidence for the absence of effectiveness. While there is a lack of evidence supporting the effectiveness of facemasks, there is similarly a lack of evidence supporting their ineffectiveness. With the information currently available, it would be imprudent to recommend the removal of facemasks from surgery. Instead, in the medical field where common practice can so easily become dogma, it is necessary to recognise the constant need to maintain a healthy scepticism towards established beliefs and to periodically re-evaluate and critically assess their scientific merit.”
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    Show me any research done before the pandemic demonstrating that cloth masks do anything that justifies their forced use. Doesn’t exist. I dont like being used as a lab rat. I refuse to participate in this uncontrolled experiment these public health experts are conducting.
  - wrp 5y ago

throwaway1777 5y ago

Sounds like we basically agree even though we are coming at it from different angles.

altcognito 5y ago
Not really. I'm saying masks work and mandates are necessary public health policy. Regardless of a mandate, people will do what they do even if it's not in their best interests, or in the interests of their loved ones, or the interests of their neighbors. They will smoke in public places, they will goto work sick, they will drive drunk. Frankly put, people can be jerks. So you put a mandate out there, and you do your best. Masks work. In areas where mask utilization is high, there is good air filtration and people follow distancing rules, the spread is slowed.

vondur 5y ago

Masks are still required where I live, yet we have some of the highest infection rates in the country. (Southern California)

wrp 5y ago

> Let the surgeons know. The surgeons already know. Since the 1990s, there has been a general movement away from using surgical masks in the OR, due to accumulating evidence that they have no effect. (For example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/)

lejohnq 5y ago
That link doesn’t indicate “accumulating evidence that they have no effect”, and the link explicitly states “it would be imprudent to recommend the removal of facemasks from surgery”. It is a literature review that didn’t find strong evidence for surgical mask effectiveness more because it hasn’t been researched deeply. And it notes that the absence of evidence does not indicate ineffectiveness of surgical masks, and rather a more significant research trial would have to be performed (and there were caveats to the feasibility of doing that as well). Specific quotes from that article: “What literature that is available on the subject tends to be dated with poorly explained methodology. There is also uncertainty over whether the results of such studies can be extrapolated to current surgical practice given the advent of new antiseptic techniques since they were completed.” “It is clear that more studies are required before any absolute conclusions can be drawn regarding the effectiveness or, indeed, ineffectiveness of surgical masks. The published literature does suggest that it may be reasonable to further examine the need for masks in contemporary surgical practice given the interests of comfort, budget constraints and potential ease of communication, although any such study would undoubtedly have to be large and well controlled to prove causality given the low event frequency of surgical site infections.” “It is important not to construe an absence of evidence for effectiveness with evidence for the absence of effectiveness. While there is a lack of evidence supporting the effectiveness of facemasks, there is similarly a lack of evidence supporting their ineffectiveness. With the information currently available, it would be imprudent to recommend the removal of facemasks from surgery. Instead, in the medical field where common practice can so easily become dogma, it is necessary to recognise the constant need to maintain a healthy scepticism towards established beliefs and to periodically re-evaluate and critically assess their scientific merit.”
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Show me any research done before the pandemic demonstrating that cloth masks do anything that justifies their forced use. Doesn’t exist. I dont like being used as a lab rat. I refuse to participate in this uncontrolled experiment these public health experts are conducting.
- wrp 5y ago