7 ms·

What swastikas?

mikeyouse 5y ago
These truckers (and most antivaxxers) somehow think they're as stigmatized as the Jews were during WWII so they often wear yellow stars, compare themselves to Anne Frank, and have signs with the SS moniker / draw swastikas over the flags to demonstrate how oppressed they are.. a few made it on TV while the MP was talking to the news crews. Whenever there's anything remotely anti-government the Gadsen/Confederate battle flags make an appearance too. Just delightful behavior. https://images.theconversation.com/files/443549/original/file-20220131-15-4qnrra.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=14%2C0%2C4800%2C3190&q=20&auto=format&w=320&fit=clip&dpr=2&usm=12&cs=strip https://images.theconversation.com/files/443549/original/fil... https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/CooperMain-900x425.png https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/CooperMain-900... https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags1-238x300.png https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags1-238x300... https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags2-300x245.png https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags2-300x245... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKMstBjXsAcY0C4?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKMstBjXsAcY0C4?format=jpg&name=... https://i.cbc.ca/1.6173258.1631709823!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/calgary-vaccine-protest-anti-vaxx-mandatory-vaccination.jpg https://i.cbc.ca/1.6173258.1631709823!/fileImage/httpImage/i...
- enchiridion 5y ago
  Small nit-pick, it is disingenuous to write “Gadsen/Confederate” flag when those are two totally separate things. The Gadsen flag for most people is a symbol of independence and freedom. Historically it was not associated with slavery, the confederate secession, or the civil war.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    I'd say that's a major distinction, not a minor nitpick at all.
    - enchiridion 5y ago
      Gotta assume best intentions, everyone doesn’t know about everything :)
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    99% of the Gadsden flags in my area are flying alongside confederate flags — likewise most of them in the protest pics I’ve seen. I know the flag’s history predates the Civil War and that it once upon a time was devoid of the current undertones, but alas, it’s (IMO) irredeemably tainted.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Counter anecdote. I've never seen a Gadsden flag flown by a confederate flag. It's mainly flown by libertarians and others who respect privacy and freedom. Either way, confederate flags aren't normally flown in racist intent. Most people fly them to represent their heritage. The Dixie line, Outlaw country, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to see a libertarian from deep Georgia fly both and not be racist in the slight. I think you need to leave your bubble and learn about the people you are trying to demonize.
      - mikeyouse 5y ago
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Again, that's your perception of the world which is deluded by your ignorance of others. Also, you ignored the rest of my post to further live in your delusion of a racist enemy to play hero against.
        mikeyouse 5y ago
        I (loosely) know plenty of people who fly the confederate flag -- they're all awful shitty racists. Including some of my family members. They all claim it's for heritage reasons as well (which is weird because we're in "the north"). The rest of your post was some anecdotal observation that you've never seen a Gadsden flag next to a confederate one. Here's the Gadsden flown by secessionists in Civil War Georgia fighting to maintain and expand slavery: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?maxwidth=650&autorotate=false&quality=78&format=webp https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?max... Here's the Alabama secession flag (which they flew because they wanted to keep slavery): https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif In fact, the Gadsden symbol was so ubiquitous as a symbol of maintaning slavery, they had political 'cartoons' of Eagles dismembering snakes in Union papers: https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/550761/cwe_008_03.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/1... It actually made it into the Battle Hymn of the Republic as well, > "I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel…Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel." Here's both with a Swastika being flown in Charlottesville before the Unite the Right rally: https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Charlottesville_Unite_the_Right_Rally_35780274914_crop.jpg https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/C... Here's one from Milwaukee from someone protesting the initial lockdowns in 2020: https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-d025-41ec-826f-d46b103701d2-IMG_1531_1.JPG?width=1320&height=990&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-... Hope that's helpful background into why many people associate the two flags.
- prepend 5y ago
  Those first three images seem pretty unequivocally using nazi imagery to critique Canada. So they aren’t Nazis, they are people complaining that Canada is acting like Nazis. I haven’t followed this but have heard friends saying that Nazis are participating. I would expect that this means some Nazis were participating. But these images don’t show that. The confederate flags just seem like jerks.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    Which is why he said "waving swastikas", not "being Nazis". But yes, Nazis are getting involved with the anti-vax protests, on the same side as Trump, not on Science's side. In Germany’s east, far-right extremists find footholds in escalating anti-vaccine protests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/01/30/coronavirus-anti-vaccine-germany/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/01/30/coronavirus-... >While Kohlmann contends that Free Saxons is not an extremist group, German authorities say it is clearly so. The co-founder, Stefan Hartung, is a member of the district council for Germany’s National Democratic Party, a neo-Nazi party. Kohlmann professed to seek the return of the Saxon monarchy and independence for the state. >He said the pandemic is an opportunity to reach more people. A “much broader range” of demonstrators join the weekly walks on Monday than anti-immigrant rallies. >He doesn’t have to reach out to people, he said. They are coming to him. >“It’s exploding,” he said of the group’s social media presence. The Free Saxons’ Telegram channel had 48,000 followers in August 2021, it has now grown to more than 140,000.
    - sensen7 5y ago
    - prepend 5y ago
      But “waving swastikas” isn’t very interesting unless it signifies Nazis right? It’s not bad to use swastikas to critique governments if you think they’re acting like Nazis. The intent of swastikas in that situation isn’t pro-nazi or anti-Semitic. I’m not sure what real Nazis in Germany being anti-vax has to do with our conversation. RFKJr is anti-vax too, what does that matter about this convoy. I was trying to figure out if there were Nazis in the convoy. It seems like there aren’t.
- finnx 5y ago
  One of those photographs you posted found[1] to be taken by personal photographer of Trudeau and most of them taken away from protesters. This[2] is one example how protesters react when they try to infiltrate the actual crowd. [1]: https://twitter.com/stobione/status/1489320295764660228 https://twitter.com/stobione/status/1489320295764660228 [2]: https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1488325761572478981 https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1488325761572478981
jeromegv 5y ago
Swastikas flag were seen at the protest. Also very far-right and nazis groups have joined the protest and were close to the organizers https://www.antihate.ca/the_freedom_convoy_is_nothing_but_a_vehicle_for_the_far_right https://www.antihate.ca/the_freedom_convoy_is_nothing_but_a_...
- ipaddr 5y ago
  There are many people of different colours at the protests. Do you paint them as nazi because someone had a flag? I saw a flag from Norway, is Norway suddenly behind this?
  - BizarroLand 5y ago
    If you're a member of a group and that group pulls out a Nazi flag, do you leave the group or do you expect random passers-by to think for a moment that maybe you aren't a Nazi sympathizer? "Oh, everyone knows ipaddr! He hangs out with a bunch of Nazis that protest to entrench "born white" as the de facto ruling class of the country, kill all the gays and trans people, and to have two separate sets of laws, one that only applies to them, and one that applies to everyone else, but he's sweet as can be!" No one is going to waste the brain power.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      I wouldn't assume someone carrying a Nazi flag means all of those things. I wouldn't assume everyone was gay or supported gay rights if someone held a rainbow flag. I might assume the person holding the flag has support for the flag but it's not necessarily true. If the Nazi flag had Justin Trudeau's face on it I would instantly get the message that Trudeau is a Nazi not support for a group from a foreign country in the 1930s.
      - BizarroLand 5y ago
        Lot of people working in overdrive to excuse displays of Nazi symbolism these days. Never would have thought I would see it on y-combinator but here we are.

What swastikas?

These truckers (and most antivaxxers) somehow think they're as stigmatized as the Jews were during WWII so they often wear yellow stars, compare themselves to Anne Frank, and have signs with the SS moniker / draw swastikas over the flags to demonstrate how oppressed they are.. a few made it on TV while the MP was talking to the news crews. Whenever there's anything remotely anti-government the Gadsen/Confederate battle flags make an appearance too. Just delightful behavior. https://images.theconversation.com/files/443549/original/file-20220131-15-4qnrra.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=14%2C0%2C4800%2C3190&q=20&auto=format&w=320&fit=clip&dpr=2&usm=12&cs=strip https://images.theconversation.com/files/443549/original/fil... https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/CooperMain-900x425.png https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/CooperMain-900... https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags1-238x300.png https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags1-238x300... https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags2-300x245.png https://albertapolitics.ca/wp-content/uploads/Flags2-300x245... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKMstBjXsAcY0C4?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKMstBjXsAcY0C4?format=jpg&name=... https://i.cbc.ca/1.6173258.1631709823!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/calgary-vaccine-protest-anti-vaxx-mandatory-vaccination.jpg https://i.cbc.ca/1.6173258.1631709823!/fileImage/httpImage/i...

enchiridion 5y ago
Small nit-pick, it is disingenuous to write “Gadsen/Confederate” flag when those are two totally separate things. The Gadsen flag for most people is a symbol of independence and freedom. Historically it was not associated with slavery, the confederate secession, or the civil war.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  I'd say that's a major distinction, not a minor nitpick at all.
  - enchiridion 5y ago
    Gotta assume best intentions, everyone doesn’t know about everything :)
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  99% of the Gadsden flags in my area are flying alongside confederate flags — likewise most of them in the protest pics I’ve seen. I know the flag’s history predates the Civil War and that it once upon a time was devoid of the current undertones, but alas, it’s (IMO) irredeemably tainted.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Counter anecdote. I've never seen a Gadsden flag flown by a confederate flag. It's mainly flown by libertarians and others who respect privacy and freedom. Either way, confederate flags aren't normally flown in racist intent. Most people fly them to represent their heritage. The Dixie line, Outlaw country, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to see a libertarian from deep Georgia fly both and not be racist in the slight. I think you need to leave your bubble and learn about the people you are trying to demonize.
    - mikeyouse 5y ago
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        Again, that's your perception of the world which is deluded by your ignorance of others. Also, you ignored the rest of my post to further live in your delusion of a racist enemy to play hero against.
        mikeyouse 5y ago
        I (loosely) know plenty of people who fly the confederate flag -- they're all awful shitty racists. Including some of my family members. They all claim it's for heritage reasons as well (which is weird because we're in "the north"). The rest of your post was some anecdotal observation that you've never seen a Gadsden flag next to a confederate one. Here's the Gadsden flown by secessionists in Civil War Georgia fighting to maintain and expand slavery: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?maxwidth=650&autorotate=false&quality=78&format=webp https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/images/Dontreadonme.jpg?max... Here's the Alabama secession flag (which they flew because they wanted to keep slavery): https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif https://archives.alabama.gov/images/noliflag.gif In fact, the Gadsden symbol was so ubiquitous as a symbol of maintaning slavery, they had political 'cartoons' of Eagles dismembering snakes in Union papers: https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/550761/cwe_008_03.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/1... It actually made it into the Battle Hymn of the Republic as well, > "I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel…Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel." Here's both with a Swastika being flown in Charlottesville before the Unite the Right rally: https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Charlottesville_Unite_the_Right_Rally_35780274914_crop.jpg https://www.virginiamercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/C... Here's one from Milwaukee from someone protesting the initial lockdowns in 2020: https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-d025-41ec-826f-d46b103701d2-IMG_1531_1.JPG?width=1320&height=990&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/19/PMJS/67a2a7dc-... Hope that's helpful background into why many people associate the two flags.
prepend 5y ago
Those first three images seem pretty unequivocally using nazi imagery to critique Canada. So they aren’t Nazis, they are people complaining that Canada is acting like Nazis. I haven’t followed this but have heard friends saying that Nazis are participating. I would expect that this means some Nazis were participating. But these images don’t show that. The confederate flags just seem like jerks.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  Which is why he said "waving swastikas", not "being Nazis". But yes, Nazis are getting involved with the anti-vax protests, on the same side as Trump, not on Science's side. In Germany’s east, far-right extremists find footholds in escalating anti-vaccine protests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/01/30/coronavirus-anti-vaccine-germany/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/01/30/coronavirus-... >While Kohlmann contends that Free Saxons is not an extremist group, German authorities say it is clearly so. The co-founder, Stefan Hartung, is a member of the district council for Germany’s National Democratic Party, a neo-Nazi party. Kohlmann professed to seek the return of the Saxon monarchy and independence for the state. >He said the pandemic is an opportunity to reach more people. A “much broader range” of demonstrators join the weekly walks on Monday than anti-immigrant rallies. >He doesn’t have to reach out to people, he said. They are coming to him. >“It’s exploding,” he said of the group’s social media presence. The Free Saxons’ Telegram channel had 48,000 followers in August 2021, it has now grown to more than 140,000.
  - sensen7 5y ago
  - prepend 5y ago
    But “waving swastikas” isn’t very interesting unless it signifies Nazis right? It’s not bad to use swastikas to critique governments if you think they’re acting like Nazis. The intent of swastikas in that situation isn’t pro-nazi or anti-Semitic. I’m not sure what real Nazis in Germany being anti-vax has to do with our conversation. RFKJr is anti-vax too, what does that matter about this convoy. I was trying to figure out if there were Nazis in the convoy. It seems like there aren’t.
finnx 5y ago
One of those photographs you posted found[1] to be taken by personal photographer of Trudeau and most of them taken away from protesters. This[2] is one example how protesters react when they try to infiltrate the actual crowd. [1]: https://twitter.com/stobione/status/1489320295764660228 https://twitter.com/stobione/status/1489320295764660228 [2]: https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1488325761572478981 https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1488325761572478981

jeromegv 5y ago

Swastikas flag were seen at the protest. Also very far-right and nazis groups have joined the protest and were close to the organizers https://www.antihate.ca/the_freedom_convoy_is_nothing_but_a_vehicle_for_the_far_right https://www.antihate.ca/the_freedom_convoy_is_nothing_but_a_...

ipaddr 5y ago
There are many people of different colours at the protests. Do you paint them as nazi because someone had a flag? I saw a flag from Norway, is Norway suddenly behind this?
- BizarroLand 5y ago
  If you're a member of a group and that group pulls out a Nazi flag, do you leave the group or do you expect random passers-by to think for a moment that maybe you aren't a Nazi sympathizer? "Oh, everyone knows ipaddr! He hangs out with a bunch of Nazis that protest to entrench "born white" as the de facto ruling class of the country, kill all the gays and trans people, and to have two separate sets of laws, one that only applies to them, and one that applies to everyone else, but he's sweet as can be!" No one is going to waste the brain power.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    I wouldn't assume someone carrying a Nazi flag means all of those things. I wouldn't assume everyone was gay or supported gay rights if someone held a rainbow flag. I might assume the person holding the flag has support for the flag but it's not necessarily true. If the Nazi flag had Justin Trudeau's face on it I would instantly get the message that Trudeau is a Nazi not support for a group from a foreign country in the 1930s.
    - BizarroLand 5y ago
      Lot of people working in overdrive to excuse displays of Nazi symbolism these days. Never would have thought I would see it on y-combinator but here we are.