7 ms·

I really don't understand the obsession with 40 hours. It's totally arbitrary, especially for knowledge workers. On my contracts I've been taking lately I work

by city41 5y ago

I really don't understand the obsession with 40 hours. It's totally arbitrary, especially for knowledge workers. On my contracts I've been taking lately I work 32 hours. It has done absolute wonders for my health. And I have no real proof, but I feel like I get just as much done. In some ways I may even get more done because having 3 days off every week makes me a lot fresher overall.

Freak_NL 5y ago
I've been doing 4×8 for years now. My wife works the same days, son goes to kindergarten¹. That leaves Friday through Sunday for household chores and relaxation. I wouldn't want to work more hours or days even if paid double. 1: Kindergarten is a huge benefit to his development, and he loves it. More and more countries are making kindergarten available to not just working parents but all (the Netherlands is going in that direction too). It's hard to overstate how beneficial that is for both (working) parents and child alike.
- theStonksRDown 5y ago
  Do you have sources to back up [1]. I'm interested in learning more.
  - aequitas 5y ago
    I've read about this a while back, sorry I only have a Dutch source[0]. Overall preschool daycare (even just a nanny) does have a positive effect on cognitive and social development, though preschool education does not add much benefit on top of that. From personal experience, my kids also love to go there, as they do all kinds of fun activities and can play with their friends more freely outside of the school context (even though it's in the same building). And I think it's important for them to socialise with other kids as that is harder to create those situations naturally when you live a little remote as we do. [0] https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-vroegschoolse-educatie-en-opvang-op-latere-ontwikkeling https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-...
    - Freak_NL 5y ago
      Also, ask any primary school teacher about the difference between children who went to kindergarten and those who didn't. It's not about education, but about socialization and emotional skills, as well as basic stuff like continence (toddlers tend to follow the examples set by older children in the kindergarten).
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  Where is kindergarten only available to working parents? That isn't something I've ever heard of before.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    In the Netherlands it is available to all but only (heavily) subsidized for parents who work (both, unless you are in a one-parent household), are in education or vocational training, or are following an integration course for immigrants. If you are (long term) jobless you generally can't afford it, but that is changing, and the subsidy will probably apply to all parents in the future.
nxmnxm99 5y ago
You will never be a more effective worker than me if you work 1 less day than I do.
- city41 5y ago
  More study is needed here. Burn out is real, and being able to recover is very valuable. I also have no idea who you are, for all we know I work circles around you or vice versa. But even if what you say is true, so? Why are we so obsessed with work? There's a lot more to life.
  - nxmnxm99 5y ago
    - city41 5y ago
      You're pulling that out of thin air. You have no idea if that is true. Your logic also says a seven day work week is ideal. But obviously we need to rest. Does 2 or 3 days of rest make us more productive? I honestly don't know. And neither do you.
      - nxmnxm99 5y ago
        Why wouldn't I know that? You don't know how to measure your own productivity? I don't work weekends because I'm not allowed to. If my company allows me to work 5 days and yours allows you to work 4, I will outproduce you. It's pretty simple. This magical optimal rest-to-productivity gradient is dumb. That's why no sane college student is studying 4 days a week. In sheer production I will demolish you while you wishfully think your Friday of grazing about will magically make you 20% more productive than me the other 4 days.
- input_sh 5y ago
  Oh noooo, I will not make the most amount of money I could make for someone else in exchange for a negligible percentage of my salary.
dvtrn 5y ago
At least from a US perspective, a long history of labor organizing, labor laws, and more organizing, more labor laws that got us to 40 hours. I think it’s less an “obsession” and is probably more realistically a fossilized anachronism of all the labor struggles and debates that came before the ones we have now.
agumonkey 5y ago
I wonder if this won't become the norm. Our world may be on a shift toward maximum efficiency. No more work more to produce more, or try to do few to extract more money and overspend. Real efficiency.
nine_k 5y ago
Even though the number 40 is arbitrary, jumping down to the arbitrary number of 32 will shave off 20% of time available for productive work. This will be noticeable, especially if your competition sticks to 40. For software development, though, this may have less consequence. A developer has to think for long swathes if time, and it's hard to stop right after 4:59pm. Equally, the intensity of the thought process is hard to assess, so a lot of slacking creeps in — partly because there's not enough time outside work hours to grapple with the life. Squeezing this slack into an explicit extra day off may be efficient.
- city41 5y ago
  That's really where I'm coming from. I'm a software developer so that's the only thing I have any experience with here. I also find I tend to work 24/7 in some capacity. Jumping out of bed to email myself a solution to an issue I've been mulling over does happen.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Yes, for software I do about 20 hours of real productive work a week. Whether that's 3 days, 4 days, or 5 is sort of irrelevant. I'm paid to get a job done, not be in a chair for a number of hours.

by city41 5y ago

Freak_NL 5y ago

I've been doing 4×8 for years now. My wife works the same days, son goes to kindergarten¹. That leaves Friday through Sunday for household chores and relaxation. I wouldn't want to work more hours or days even if paid double. 1: Kindergarten is a huge benefit to his development, and he loves it. More and more countries are making kindergarten available to not just working parents but all (the Netherlands is going in that direction too). It's hard to overstate how beneficial that is for both (working) parents and child alike.

theStonksRDown 5y ago
Do you have sources to back up [1]. I'm interested in learning more.
- aequitas 5y ago
  I've read about this a while back, sorry I only have a Dutch source[0]. Overall preschool daycare (even just a nanny) does have a positive effect on cognitive and social development, though preschool education does not add much benefit on top of that. From personal experience, my kids also love to go there, as they do all kinds of fun activities and can play with their friends more freely outside of the school context (even though it's in the same building). And I think it's important for them to socialise with other kids as that is harder to create those situations naturally when you live a little remote as we do. [0] https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-vroegschoolse-educatie-en-opvang-op-latere-ontwikkeling https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-...
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Also, ask any primary school teacher about the difference between children who went to kindergarten and those who didn't. It's not about education, but about socialization and emotional skills, as well as basic stuff like continence (toddlers tend to follow the examples set by older children in the kindergarten).
plorkyeran 5y ago
Where is kindergarten only available to working parents? That isn't something I've ever heard of before.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  In the Netherlands it is available to all but only (heavily) subsidized for parents who work (both, unless you are in a one-parent household), are in education or vocational training, or are following an integration course for immigrants. If you are (long term) jobless you generally can't afford it, but that is changing, and the subsidy will probably apply to all parents in the future.

nxmnxm99 5y ago

You will never be a more effective worker than me if you work 1 less day than I do.

city41 5y ago
More study is needed here. Burn out is real, and being able to recover is very valuable. I also have no idea who you are, for all we know I work circles around you or vice versa. But even if what you say is true, so? Why are we so obsessed with work? There's a lot more to life.
- nxmnxm99 5y ago
  - city41 5y ago
    You're pulling that out of thin air. You have no idea if that is true. Your logic also says a seven day work week is ideal. But obviously we need to rest. Does 2 or 3 days of rest make us more productive? I honestly don't know. And neither do you.
    - nxmnxm99 5y ago
      Why wouldn't I know that? You don't know how to measure your own productivity? I don't work weekends because I'm not allowed to. If my company allows me to work 5 days and yours allows you to work 4, I will outproduce you. It's pretty simple. This magical optimal rest-to-productivity gradient is dumb. That's why no sane college student is studying 4 days a week. In sheer production I will demolish you while you wishfully think your Friday of grazing about will magically make you 20% more productive than me the other 4 days.
input_sh 5y ago
Oh noooo, I will not make the most amount of money I could make for someone else in exchange for a negligible percentage of my salary.

dvtrn 5y ago

At least from a US perspective, a long history of labor organizing, labor laws, and more organizing, more labor laws that got us to 40 hours. I think it’s less an “obsession” and is probably more realistically a fossilized anachronism of all the labor struggles and debates that came before the ones we have now.

agumonkey 5y ago

I wonder if this won't become the norm. Our world may be on a shift toward maximum efficiency. No more work more to produce more, or try to do few to extract more money and overspend. Real efficiency.

nine_k 5y ago

Even though the number 40 is arbitrary, jumping down to the arbitrary number of 32 will shave off 20% of time available for productive work. This will be noticeable, especially if your competition sticks to 40. For software development, though, this may have less consequence. A developer has to think for long swathes if time, and it's hard to stop right after 4:59pm. Equally, the intensity of the thought process is hard to assess, so a lot of slacking creeps in — partly because there's not enough time outside work hours to grapple with the life. Squeezing this slack into an explicit extra day off may be efficient.

city41 5y ago
That's really where I'm coming from. I'm a software developer so that's the only thing I have any experience with here. I also find I tend to work 24/7 in some capacity. Jumping out of bed to email myself a solution to an issue I've been mulling over does happen.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Yes, for software I do about 20 hours of real productive work a week. Whether that's 3 days, 4 days, or 5 is sort of irrelevant. I'm paid to get a job done, not be in a chair for a number of hours.