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Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" approaches for something good? Say some education app that hooks you so you can progress and learn

by vitro 5y ago

Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" approaches for something good? Say some education app that hooks you so you can progress and learn more. Are they still called "dark patterns" in this case? Example - badges for tasks you have done or "streaks" or levels to show you how you progress and what you have achieved so far?

thewebcount 5y ago
In my opinion, yes. Take for example DuoLingo. It is very aggressive about trying to get you to turn on notifications. They claim that if you have notifications on you're more likely to continue learning at a regular pace. That may be true (though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition). However, my understanding is that they also slip in other notifications about things you might not care about like your "rank" on the "leaderboards". (I'm trying to learn a language, not compete in the Olympics. Why do I need to compare my progress to random strangers around the world?) Some of the dark patterns go away when you subscribe, but not all. Using the app feels really gross, even though I am learning a new language. Many of the dark patterns may have positive outcomes, but it's all still to juice their metrics in the end.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition I wouldn't say that. First, spaced repetition would usually apply to the individual vocabulary items DuoLingo wants you to remember, not to DuoLingo itself. It's a method for choosing which items to review. Second, and related to #1, the learning work in spaced repetition is being done by the repetition part. More repetition is better. Constant repetition will make you learn more effectively than spaced repetition will. What spaced repetition is (successfully) attempting to improve on is the model where you review a fact once and then never look at it again. It's a huge upgrade from that; you'll forget your one-and-done fact very quickly. But it's a huge downgrade from reviewing the fact every day for the rest of your life. It's just that it's also cheaper than that is.
  - tomcatfish 5y ago
    It's a good idea to make a service that claims to help you be cheap. Duolingo doesn't have any intrinsic claim to take up a large space in people's lives, so it might be a good idea (if their goal is to help people learn languages) to remain as tiny as possible while being effective over some threshold. Then it would easily fit in people's schedules. Their motivation seems to be engagement with the app, not language learning, and I make this judgement by noticing that engagement tools have changed over time, but language learning has not (visibly).
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > it might be a good idea (if their goal is to help people learn languages) to remain as tiny as possible while being effective over some threshold. Then it would easily fit in people's schedules. Sure, but a little bit of daily engagement is a reasonable approach to that. > Their motivation seems to be engagement with the app, not language learning True, but daily streaks are a plus for language learning, so it makes no sense to attack the practice of tracking daily streaks. Duolingo is not an effective use of your time if you want to learn a language. But if we assume that the options are Duolingo or nothing, you're better off using Duolingo every day.
- watwut 5y ago
  I get duolingo notifications for daily reminders and full hearts. That is it.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
You're talking about Duolingo, right? The problem with these incentives is you eventually forget you installed the app to learn a new language and you start gaming the system instead by repeating easy lessons just to avoid losing your position in diamond league.
autoexec 5y ago
> Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" approaches for something good? All of these "dark patterns" are just tools and psychological manipulations. They're used for all kinds of positive outcomes. Gamification lets us use them to help with learning, or our todo lists, or to kick a bad habit or as part of therapy. It's not that these techniques themselves are always evil, but the potential for abuse exists and when they're used in games, it's often to keep players addicted or spending money.

by vitro 5y ago

thewebcount 5y ago

In my opinion, yes. Take for example DuoLingo. It is very aggressive about trying to get you to turn on notifications. They claim that if you have notifications on you're more likely to continue learning at a regular pace. That may be true (though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition). However, my understanding is that they also slip in other notifications about things you might not care about like your "rank" on the "leaderboards". (I'm trying to learn a language, not compete in the Olympics. Why do I need to compare my progress to random strangers around the world?) Some of the dark patterns go away when you subscribe, but not all. Using the app feels really gross, even though I am learning a new language. Many of the dark patterns may have positive outcomes, but it's all still to juice their metrics in the end.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition I wouldn't say that. First, spaced repetition would usually apply to the individual vocabulary items DuoLingo wants you to remember, not to DuoLingo itself. It's a method for choosing which items to review. Second, and related to #1, the learning work in spaced repetition is being done by the repetition part. More repetition is better. Constant repetition will make you learn more effectively than spaced repetition will. What spaced repetition is (successfully) attempting to improve on is the model where you review a fact once and then never look at it again. It's a huge upgrade from that; you'll forget your one-and-done fact very quickly. But it's a huge downgrade from reviewing the fact every day for the rest of your life. It's just that it's also cheaper than that is.
- tomcatfish 5y ago
  It's a good idea to make a service that claims to help you be cheap. Duolingo doesn't have any intrinsic claim to take up a large space in people's lives, so it might be a good idea (if their goal is to help people learn languages) to remain as tiny as possible while being effective over some threshold. Then it would easily fit in people's schedules. Their motivation seems to be engagement with the app, not language learning, and I make this judgement by noticing that engagement tools have changed over time, but language learning has not (visibly).
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > it might be a good idea (if their goal is to help people learn languages) to remain as tiny as possible while being effective over some threshold. Then it would easily fit in people's schedules. Sure, but a little bit of daily engagement is a reasonable approach to that. > Their motivation seems to be engagement with the app, not language learning True, but daily streaks are a plus for language learning, so it makes no sense to attack the practice of tracking daily streaks. Duolingo is not an effective use of your time if you want to learn a language. But if we assume that the options are Duolingo or nothing, you're better off using Duolingo every day.
watwut 5y ago
I get duolingo notifications for daily reminders and full hearts. That is it.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

You're talking about Duolingo, right? The problem with these incentives is you eventually forget you installed the app to learn a new language and you start gaming the system instead by repeating easy lessons just to avoid losing your position in diamond league.

autoexec 5y ago

> Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" approaches for something good? All of these "dark patterns" are just tools and psychological manipulations. They're used for all kinds of positive outcomes. Gamification lets us use them to help with learning, or our todo lists, or to kick a bad habit or as part of therapy. It's not that these techniques themselves are always evil, but the potential for abuse exists and when they're used in games, it's often to keep players addicted or spending money.