5 ms·

This article is arguing for 40 hours in 4 days. The general argument for a 4-day work week is 4, 8 hour days, which is meaningfully different.

hinkley 5y ago
And using 12 hour days as an anecdote... Some people round that 4 days down to 30 hours, which is 7.5 hours a day, with a slight chance of missing the worst of rush hour in one direction.
- 420official 5y ago
  Isn't rush hour a function of the work day? Shift the working hours and you also shift rush hour.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  If there is a commute then it needs cut down to three days.
6LLvveMx2koXfwn 5y ago
Yep, almost all potential 4-day week proposals are predicated on 80% of time for 100% of productivity.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  We really need to consider as a society whether or not our 'cult of productivity' is actually very beneficial.
  - krapp 5y ago
    It is beneficial to those it is intended to benefit.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
It's strange. I hear a lot of talk about 4 day work week but not if they mean the same amount of work in four days or four days with the less total hours. It's a bit frustrating because I don't like the 4 day 40 hour work week. In the winter in many areas it would be absolutely soul crushing. But the 4 day 8 hour per day work week I think should absolutely be implemented into almost every job immediately.
- is_true 5y ago
  I work for myself and usually work 4 hours in the morning and 2 hours after 20. I'm writing this comment in the shore of a river nearby, making tea in a fire.
  - AlwaysRock 5y ago
    I see this as the answer for a lot of folks. But having run an office and half a company in the past... I've found that the benefits of a reduced hour work week are offset by the pressures/stresses of owning a business. The only real saving grace of a 9-5 is that after 5, except on rare circumstances, my time is my time. I'm able to relatively stress free. If I'm running the show there is almost always something else that can be done. So picking reading by a river with some tea will almost always take a backseat to responding to whatever customer email that just came in.
city41 5y ago
I really don't understand the obsession with 40 hours. It's totally arbitrary, especially for knowledge workers. On my contracts I've been taking lately I work 32 hours. It has done absolute wonders for my health. And I have no real proof, but I feel like I get just as much done. In some ways I may even get more done because having 3 days off every week makes me a lot fresher overall.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  I've been doing 4×8 for years now. My wife works the same days, son goes to kindergarten¹. That leaves Friday through Sunday for household chores and relaxation. I wouldn't want to work more hours or days even if paid double. 1: Kindergarten is a huge benefit to his development, and he loves it. More and more countries are making kindergarten available to not just working parents but all (the Netherlands is going in that direction too). It's hard to overstate how beneficial that is for both (working) parents and child alike.
  - theStonksRDown 5y ago
    Do you have sources to back up [1]. I'm interested in learning more.
    - aequitas 5y ago
      I've read about this a while back, sorry I only have a Dutch source[0]. Overall preschool daycare (even just a nanny) does have a positive effect on cognitive and social development, though preschool education does not add much benefit on top of that. From personal experience, my kids also love to go there, as they do all kinds of fun activities and can play with their friends more freely outside of the school context (even though it's in the same building). And I think it's important for them to socialise with other kids as that is harder to create those situations naturally when you live a little remote as we do. [0] https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-vroegschoolse-educatie-en-opvang-op-latere-ontwikkeling https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-...
ozim 5y ago
So 36 hours a week are better like having Friday off every second week. But making 40 hours in 4 days - nope that is not a good idea. I did experiment last year when I was doing 32 hours a week so I was taking vacation days every Friday for a month. I felt a lot better, salary hit was not that bad. I have a small loan to pay back, when I am done with it I am going for 36 hours - well it will be one week 40 and other 32. I expect it still will be huge improvement for my well being.
brimble 5y ago
3x8 is when most of life stops revolving very heavily around selling your time to do what other people who have money tell you to, and anything else whatsoever has a chance to become the main thing a normal person dedicates their life/time to in their prime years. That's the point at which we've really made it as a culture, IMO, and that's why even 4x8 is flawed (but a huge step in the right direction!) 4x10, as in TFA, isn't progress but just shifting things around. It's not a revolution, it's not new, and it doesn't change things in any interesting ways, IMO. Maybe it's a baby-step to 4x8? I dunno. However, rather than messing with any of this (right now) I'd prefer that we drastically cut back who counts as "exempt" for the purposes of overtime, and fake "contractors" (actually full time workers) that are widespread all over the economy, et c. That seems like a solid step 1. Whole sections of the economy aren't even doing what's nominally "full time" now, but more. More hours should be on the table, but only at a significant premium so companies aren't free to just demand it for nothing, and workers should be free to refuse it (so that they have to offer enough that the "yes" is an actual "yes"). That way they only use it when they need it—you know, leverage market forces to do something good. Also, I'd call out fixing healthcare and broadening coverage of anti-noncompete and pro-moonlighting laws to the entire country as vital if we want these changes to reduced-full-time-work to be an economic benefit, not hindrance. That'll make entrepreneurship or side-hustles far more accessible to people who want something resembling a normal life (having a family, for instance) and also aren't trust-fund kids or otherwise damn lucky, but who want to sell something they are fully responsible for and are choosing to do. Something would also need to be done about current part-time workers, who suffer from a different "working too many hours" problem than white-collar folks (i.e. multiple jobs out of necessity). Much higher minimum wages (or, if we want to go farther, UBI) might be on the table. In general I think enhancing the market signaling power of the large bulk of the populace that's not doing so great now, could only help make our economy healthier and more robust—much of the point of having a market economy is to efficiently provide things people want, right? That would also go hand-in-hand with opening up time & opportunity for entrepreneurship. There'd be some challenges involved (the effect on real estate prices is absolutely the #1 concern, but, like... that's already going poorly, so we already need to find a way to stop that) but I don't think they're insurmountable.
carabiner 5y ago
The article is likely a plant by the establishment (Conde Nast here) who want to maintain a servant class, so they're grasping for any straw men they can find. As union talk spreads among tech workers, expect an article in Wired something like, "Could unions be bad?"

hinkley 5y ago

And using 12 hour days as an anecdote... Some people round that 4 days down to 30 hours, which is 7.5 hours a day, with a slight chance of missing the worst of rush hour in one direction.

420official 5y ago
Isn't rush hour a function of the work day? Shift the working hours and you also shift rush hour.
datavirtue 5y ago
If there is a commute then it needs cut down to three days.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 5y ago

Yep, almost all potential 4-day week proposals are predicated on 80% of time for 100% of productivity.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
We really need to consider as a society whether or not our 'cult of productivity' is actually very beneficial.
- krapp 5y ago
  It is beneficial to those it is intended to benefit.

AlwaysRock 5y ago

It's strange. I hear a lot of talk about 4 day work week but not if they mean the same amount of work in four days or four days with the less total hours. It's a bit frustrating because I don't like the 4 day 40 hour work week. In the winter in many areas it would be absolutely soul crushing. But the 4 day 8 hour per day work week I think should absolutely be implemented into almost every job immediately.

is_true 5y ago
I work for myself and usually work 4 hours in the morning and 2 hours after 20. I'm writing this comment in the shore of a river nearby, making tea in a fire.
- AlwaysRock 5y ago
  I see this as the answer for a lot of folks. But having run an office and half a company in the past... I've found that the benefits of a reduced hour work week are offset by the pressures/stresses of owning a business. The only real saving grace of a 9-5 is that after 5, except on rare circumstances, my time is my time. I'm able to relatively stress free. If I'm running the show there is almost always something else that can be done. So picking reading by a river with some tea will almost always take a backseat to responding to whatever customer email that just came in.

city41 5y ago

I really don't understand the obsession with 40 hours. It's totally arbitrary, especially for knowledge workers. On my contracts I've been taking lately I work 32 hours. It has done absolute wonders for my health. And I have no real proof, but I feel like I get just as much done. In some ways I may even get more done because having 3 days off every week makes me a lot fresher overall.

Freak_NL 5y ago
I've been doing 4×8 for years now. My wife works the same days, son goes to kindergarten¹. That leaves Friday through Sunday for household chores and relaxation. I wouldn't want to work more hours or days even if paid double. 1: Kindergarten is a huge benefit to his development, and he loves it. More and more countries are making kindergarten available to not just working parents but all (the Netherlands is going in that direction too). It's hard to overstate how beneficial that is for both (working) parents and child alike.
- theStonksRDown 5y ago
  Do you have sources to back up [1]. I'm interested in learning more.
  - aequitas 5y ago
    I've read about this a while back, sorry I only have a Dutch source[0]. Overall preschool daycare (even just a nanny) does have a positive effect on cognitive and social development, though preschool education does not add much benefit on top of that. From personal experience, my kids also love to go there, as they do all kinds of fun activities and can play with their friends more freely outside of the school context (even though it's in the same building). And I think it's important for them to socialise with other kids as that is harder to create those situations naturally when you live a little remote as we do. [0] https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-vroegschoolse-educatie-en-opvang-op-latere-ontwikkeling https://www.nro.nl/onderzoeksprojecten/effecten-van-voor-en-...

ozim 5y ago

So 36 hours a week are better like having Friday off every second week. But making 40 hours in 4 days - nope that is not a good idea. I did experiment last year when I was doing 32 hours a week so I was taking vacation days every Friday for a month. I felt a lot better, salary hit was not that bad. I have a small loan to pay back, when I am done with it I am going for 36 hours - well it will be one week 40 and other 32. I expect it still will be huge improvement for my well being.

brimble 5y ago

3x8 is when most of life stops revolving very heavily around selling your time to do what other people who have money tell you to, and anything else whatsoever has a chance to become the main thing a normal person dedicates their life/time to in their prime years. That's the point at which we've really made it as a culture, IMO, and that's why even 4x8 is flawed (but a huge step in the right direction!) 4x10, as in TFA, isn't progress but just shifting things around. It's not a revolution, it's not new, and it doesn't change things in any interesting ways, IMO. Maybe it's a baby-step to 4x8? I dunno. However, rather than messing with any of this (right now) I'd prefer that we drastically cut back who counts as "exempt" for the purposes of overtime, and fake "contractors" (actually full time workers) that are widespread all over the economy, et c. That seems like a solid step 1. Whole sections of the economy aren't even doing what's nominally "full time" now, but more. More hours should be on the table, but only at a significant premium so companies aren't free to just demand it for nothing, and workers should be free to refuse it (so that they have to offer enough that the "yes" is an actual "yes"). That way they only use it when they need it—you know, leverage market forces to do something good. Also, I'd call out fixing healthcare and broadening coverage of anti-noncompete and pro-moonlighting laws to the entire country as vital if we want these changes to reduced-full-time-work to be an economic benefit, not hindrance. That'll make entrepreneurship or side-hustles far more accessible to people who want something resembling a normal life (having a family, for instance) and also aren't trust-fund kids or otherwise damn lucky, but who want to sell something they are fully responsible for and are choosing to do. Something would also need to be done about current part-time workers, who suffer from a different "working too many hours" problem than white-collar folks (i.e. multiple jobs out of necessity). Much higher minimum wages (or, if we want to go farther, UBI) might be on the table. In general I think enhancing the market signaling power of the large bulk of the populace that's not doing so great now, could only help make our economy healthier and more robust—much of the point of having a market economy is to efficiently provide things people want, right? That would also go hand-in-hand with opening up time & opportunity for entrepreneurship. There'd be some challenges involved (the effect on real estate prices is absolutely the #1 concern, but, like... that's already going poorly, so we already need to find a way to stop that) but I don't think they're insurmountable.

carabiner 5y ago

The article is likely a plant by the establishment (Conde Nast here) who want to maintain a servant class, so they're grasping for any straw men they can find. As union talk spreads among tech workers, expect an article in Wired something like, "Could unions be bad?"