4 ms·

You've made me feel embarrassingly privileged for have done absolutely nothing to earn my right to work in the world's tech capital. I wonder how many people j

You've made me feel embarrassingly privileged for have done absolutely nothing to earn my right to work in the world's tech capital. I wonder how many people just slightly less motivated or talented than you are turned away (or even more troubling: less able to afford prolific immigration lawyers). I understand the importance of immigration controls writ large, but this is transparently ridiculous.

ipaddr 5y ago
Most never come.
- graderjs 5y ago
  But then how is it the tech capital of the world? I think they do come. But there are still many talents outside.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    It is the birthplace of the pc. It started in the 70s and 80s and turned into the center of the tech world. They do come, more than any other place but most don't come because uprooting your life and getting through the visa process is a lot more friction than working locally or semi-locally. If you live in Greece you would go to Germany before coming to sf.
    - graderjs 5y ago
      I think like most things online we're talking at slightly different aspects or perspectives of the same general topic. But the difference is subtle. I'll try to clarify a little bit > they do come, more than any other place but most don't come With most being, most of the > just slightly less motivated or talented than the author of the article. That our comments come in the wake of. I think we agree on that: that most of those outside of the very top of the tech elite do not come. And we're also not in dispute as to how it can become the tech capital of the world because I think most of the top talents that could come do come. But the most that don't come are those who are just slightly less motivated or talented than the very top. I think our disagreement here is probably all about degrees and relative amounts rather than about the substance of the the points. I could be misunderstanding what you're saying, but here's how I see it. Say there exist 1 million top tech talents in the world. I say most of those that can come do come to the Bay area. The crucial part is: can come. What does "that can come" mean? It means how much demand is there in the Bay area for top tech talents. Let's just say the demand is like 500,000 top tech talent jobs in the Bay area. That means out of a million top tech talents in the world there are 500,000 that can come to the Bay area. What I'm saying is that most of those do come. So at the very least 250,001 top tech talents do come to the Bay area. that's what I'm saying. I think the reality is very much in line with that thesis. I admit I have no hard data to back this up it's just my feeling that it should be the case. I'd be very surprised if the reality that I described (adjusted for the actual amounts,) was not the case. I mean if it was not the case I'd be happy to learn, and that would be surprising and interesting, and a highly useful lesson that I could update my perspective with because it was so surprising to me. But I highly doubt that it's not the case. Also the more we talk about this the more I'm sure that we don't actually disagree about that. Do I think that most of the subtop tech talents do not come to the Bay area? Yes I absolutely think that the vast majority of not-elite tech talent in the world (so those outside of that hypothetical 1 million) do not come. One reason is obvious which is just because there's so many tech talents in the world and there's not enough demand in the San Francisco Bay area to accommodate all of those. The second part of that is those sub-top tech talents that could come. so where there is a demand for subtop tech talents do most of those come or not? I honestly don't know. I think it could go either way: maybe they come because they seek a better life and they want to get a higher salary and that high grade experience; Or maybe they don't come because they're just not motivated enough to overcome the immigration process barriers and maybe they're not (by definition) talented or experienced enough to command the even higher salaries that would make that an attractive proposition for people with that given level of motivation. I think it could go either way. Now none of this contradicts the idea I think you're proposing that the US immigration system presents real and troubling barriers to staffing the US tech industry. I agree: I think that's a real tension the US faces. I'm not pretending that's not a problem nor trying to say it's some easy problem.
      - jokethrowaway 5y ago
        You have no way of proving this. There could be easily plenty of talent being "wasted" somewhere else. You'll surely get the most financially ambitious people though. The smartest person I know (in terms of registered iq, academic performance and reasoning capabilities) is doing a low paid job in southern europe and he's happy.
        graderjs 5y ago
        I'm OK saying things I have no way to prove. If you're not okay to do that yourself I get it but I think you're doing that here too. Anyway, I understand how you could have taken what I said to mean I think they're wasted but that's not what I mean.
goodpoint 5y ago
Believe me or not, I know a number of engineers at FAANGS that turned down opportunities to move to the US even at 3x the salary. The bizantine bureaucracy without clear guarantees and timelines, the theoretical risk of being deported, the less theoretical risk of being under surveillance, the limits on what you can do on H1B... it makes people feel very unwelcome.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- FredPret 5y ago
  I immigrated to Canada. It’s a very stressful process to emigrate; having a clear and fair process in front of you when you start is critical. The Canadians made the process very clear - a high bar, but a fair and even kind process. I would never have considered going to the States due to the sheer difficulty and risk of it. Because my country of origin is not somewhere I ever want to see again, even the smallest risk of deportation is completely unacceptable to me.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
I dreamed about moving to the States and making bank, as a kid. Growing up I realised the cost of living in an American society would be higher than its benefits.

ipaddr 5y ago

Most never come.

graderjs 5y ago
But then how is it the tech capital of the world? I think they do come. But there are still many talents outside.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  It is the birthplace of the pc. It started in the 70s and 80s and turned into the center of the tech world. They do come, more than any other place but most don't come because uprooting your life and getting through the visa process is a lot more friction than working locally or semi-locally. If you live in Greece you would go to Germany before coming to sf.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    I think like most things online we're talking at slightly different aspects or perspectives of the same general topic. But the difference is subtle. I'll try to clarify a little bit > they do come, more than any other place but most don't come With most being, most of the > just slightly less motivated or talented than the author of the article. That our comments come in the wake of. I think we agree on that: that most of those outside of the very top of the tech elite do not come. And we're also not in dispute as to how it can become the tech capital of the world because I think most of the top talents that could come do come. But the most that don't come are those who are just slightly less motivated or talented than the very top. I think our disagreement here is probably all about degrees and relative amounts rather than about the substance of the the points. I could be misunderstanding what you're saying, but here's how I see it. Say there exist 1 million top tech talents in the world. I say most of those that can come do come to the Bay area. The crucial part is: can come. What does "that can come" mean? It means how much demand is there in the Bay area for top tech talents. Let's just say the demand is like 500,000 top tech talent jobs in the Bay area. That means out of a million top tech talents in the world there are 500,000 that can come to the Bay area. What I'm saying is that most of those do come. So at the very least 250,001 top tech talents do come to the Bay area. that's what I'm saying. I think the reality is very much in line with that thesis. I admit I have no hard data to back this up it's just my feeling that it should be the case. I'd be very surprised if the reality that I described (adjusted for the actual amounts,) was not the case. I mean if it was not the case I'd be happy to learn, and that would be surprising and interesting, and a highly useful lesson that I could update my perspective with because it was so surprising to me. But I highly doubt that it's not the case. Also the more we talk about this the more I'm sure that we don't actually disagree about that. Do I think that most of the subtop tech talents do not come to the Bay area? Yes I absolutely think that the vast majority of not-elite tech talent in the world (so those outside of that hypothetical 1 million) do not come. One reason is obvious which is just because there's so many tech talents in the world and there's not enough demand in the San Francisco Bay area to accommodate all of those. The second part of that is those sub-top tech talents that could come. so where there is a demand for subtop tech talents do most of those come or not? I honestly don't know. I think it could go either way: maybe they come because they seek a better life and they want to get a higher salary and that high grade experience; Or maybe they don't come because they're just not motivated enough to overcome the immigration process barriers and maybe they're not (by definition) talented or experienced enough to command the even higher salaries that would make that an attractive proposition for people with that given level of motivation. I think it could go either way. Now none of this contradicts the idea I think you're proposing that the US immigration system presents real and troubling barriers to staffing the US tech industry. I agree: I think that's a real tension the US faces. I'm not pretending that's not a problem nor trying to say it's some easy problem.
    - jokethrowaway 5y ago
      You have no way of proving this. There could be easily plenty of talent being "wasted" somewhere else. You'll surely get the most financially ambitious people though. The smartest person I know (in terms of registered iq, academic performance and reasoning capabilities) is doing a low paid job in southern europe and he's happy.
      - graderjs 5y ago
        I'm OK saying things I have no way to prove. If you're not okay to do that yourself I get it but I think you're doing that here too. Anyway, I understand how you could have taken what I said to mean I think they're wasted but that's not what I mean.

goodpoint 5y ago

Believe me or not, I know a number of engineers at FAANGS that turned down opportunities to move to the US even at 3x the salary. The bizantine bureaucracy without clear guarantees and timelines, the theoretical risk of being deported, the less theoretical risk of being under surveillance, the limits on what you can do on H1B... it makes people feel very unwelcome.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
FredPret 5y ago
I immigrated to Canada. It’s a very stressful process to emigrate; having a clear and fair process in front of you when you start is critical. The Canadians made the process very clear - a high bar, but a fair and even kind process. I would never have considered going to the States due to the sheer difficulty and risk of it. Because my country of origin is not somewhere I ever want to see again, even the smallest risk of deportation is completely unacceptable to me.

jokethrowaway 5y ago

I dreamed about moving to the States and making bank, as a kid. Growing up I realised the cost of living in an American society would be higher than its benefits.