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It's not a zero-sum game though! Those immigrants bring talent and skills and ideas and create companies that create jobs for people here.

by davidw 5y ago

nebula8804 5y ago
Yes you are right but put yourself in the shoes of the people who vote for these anti-immigration policies. Decade after decade of decline does not give them the freedom to care if some startup that they may never hear of gets created in one of them "coastal elite" cities. All they see is probably what they watched on the TV show Silicon Valley or what they hear in the news. I fully believe that if things were improving for them, they would be welcoming immigrants with open arms (or at least not minding them). However that is not the case. So in an environment where there isn't abundance but scarcity, it is a zero sum game.
- davidw 5y ago
  We should be honest with people and talk about the root causes of problems, rather than blaming people coming here in search of a better life.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    We know the root cause of the problem. It is very well defined. The elites of this country have essentially sold out the middle class by shipping their jobs overseas and depress wages in every industry by methods such as H1-B visas to further keep people from climbing the economic ladder. This has destroyed countless towns and cities and left millions in desperation with no hope for any dignified future for them or their kids. The solution to this issue is not a "conversation", its action. Obama was elected in a massive landslide by these very people because he promised "Hope and Change". Instead he accelerated efforts to further destroy what little the middle class had left. So as a response, the people elected a populist who promised to stop the bleeding in an aggressive manner (ie. stop immigration). He did not fulfill any of his promises and now we are left with a population that is even more angry. The next step is going to be even worse.
- omegaworks 5y ago
  You are describing a problem with propaganda and corporate media, a problem with marketing and perception, not a problem with immigrants.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    No not propaganda and corporate media. A problem with how the elites run this country. They use tools such as immigration to depress wages and destroy towns and cities when whole industries are shipped overseas. As a result, a desperate population will cling to scapegoats such as immigrants and will be motivated to put a stop to it. Propaganda and corporate media are just tools used by opportunists to make money.
    - omegaworks 5y ago
      Your boss sets the wage. He also collaborates with "free trade" politicians to move whole industries overseas to places where human rights are not respected and labor organizers are regularly murdered. The elites use propaganda and corporate media to convince "a desperate population" that immigrants are the problem, not their collusion with capital. Immigrants don't "destroy towns" they reinvigorate them[1]. 1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2017/03/02/why-embracing-immigrants-brings-growth-to-rust-belt-cities/?sh=20bf5e657d56 https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2017/03/02/why-embracing...
coconoco 5y ago
I’ve definitely wondered how easier immigration would affect my salary. I could see a lot of talented devs quitting their jobs to start companies that would hopefully recruit me with better benefits than I currently have.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  Honestly I'm thinking more and more that devs only have 1-2 decades left before enough of the stack gets easy enough to automate. While there is a whole process in developing quality software that is extremely difficult to automate, often many shops don't require this and so it remains to be seen if these high salaries will be sustainable. With the rising costs of maintaining a solid middle class life in this country and no safety net, I suspect this magical opportunity a few have been fortunate enough to get will not exist for the next generation of developers. Efforts such at TPP and "Learn to Code" are tools used to chip away at this advantage these workers in the tech industry currently have over employers. The only hope I have is that most efforts to automate real software development have fallen apart thus far and that it is hard to do this job for many people trying to "learn to code". However I worry about what AI advancements will bring. No way to know until it happens...

It's not a zero-sum game though! Those immigrants bring talent and skills and ideas and create companies that create jobs for people here.

by davidw 5y ago

It's not a zero-sum game though! Those immigrants bring talent and skills and ideas and create companies that create jobs for people here.

nebula8804 5y ago

Yes you are right but put yourself in the shoes of the people who vote for these anti-immigration policies. Decade after decade of decline does not give them the freedom to care if some startup that they may never hear of gets created in one of them "coastal elite" cities. All they see is probably what they watched on the TV show Silicon Valley or what they hear in the news. I fully believe that if things were improving for them, they would be welcoming immigrants with open arms (or at least not minding them). However that is not the case. So in an environment where there isn't abundance but scarcity, it is a zero sum game.

davidw 5y ago
We should be honest with people and talk about the root causes of problems, rather than blaming people coming here in search of a better life.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  We know the root cause of the problem. It is very well defined. The elites of this country have essentially sold out the middle class by shipping their jobs overseas and depress wages in every industry by methods such as H1-B visas to further keep people from climbing the economic ladder. This has destroyed countless towns and cities and left millions in desperation with no hope for any dignified future for them or their kids. The solution to this issue is not a "conversation", its action. Obama was elected in a massive landslide by these very people because he promised "Hope and Change". Instead he accelerated efforts to further destroy what little the middle class had left. So as a response, the people elected a populist who promised to stop the bleeding in an aggressive manner (ie. stop immigration). He did not fulfill any of his promises and now we are left with a population that is even more angry. The next step is going to be even worse.
omegaworks 5y ago
You are describing a problem with propaganda and corporate media, a problem with marketing and perception, not a problem with immigrants.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  No not propaganda and corporate media. A problem with how the elites run this country. They use tools such as immigration to depress wages and destroy towns and cities when whole industries are shipped overseas. As a result, a desperate population will cling to scapegoats such as immigrants and will be motivated to put a stop to it. Propaganda and corporate media are just tools used by opportunists to make money.
  - omegaworks 5y ago
    Your boss sets the wage. He also collaborates with "free trade" politicians to move whole industries overseas to places where human rights are not respected and labor organizers are regularly murdered. The elites use propaganda and corporate media to convince "a desperate population" that immigrants are the problem, not their collusion with capital. Immigrants don't "destroy towns" they reinvigorate them[1]. 1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2017/03/02/why-embracing-immigrants-brings-growth-to-rust-belt-cities/?sh=20bf5e657d56 https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2017/03/02/why-embracing...

coconoco 5y ago

I’ve definitely wondered how easier immigration would affect my salary. I could see a lot of talented devs quitting their jobs to start companies that would hopefully recruit me with better benefits than I currently have.

nebula8804 5y ago
Honestly I'm thinking more and more that devs only have 1-2 decades left before enough of the stack gets easy enough to automate. While there is a whole process in developing quality software that is extremely difficult to automate, often many shops don't require this and so it remains to be seen if these high salaries will be sustainable. With the rising costs of maintaining a solid middle class life in this country and no safety net, I suspect this magical opportunity a few have been fortunate enough to get will not exist for the next generation of developers. Efforts such at TPP and "Learn to Code" are tools used to chip away at this advantage these workers in the tech industry currently have over employers. The only hope I have is that most efforts to automate real software development have fallen apart thus far and that it is hard to do this job for many people trying to "learn to code". However I worry about what AI advancements will bring. No way to know until it happens...