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"I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people w

"I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics. Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D. Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted? Probably not, it was just something they thought players would like. And indeed, many players do.

brnt 5y ago
Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for it to be problematic.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern. > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern. If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
  - brnt 5y ago
    > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      > Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. I already addressed this point earlier: > What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question. Was that just because you didn't have a good response that fit your argument? It sure seems like it. > I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. This is just you asserting your own preferences as an Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect." Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even bewildering. Asserting that if other people find different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong is the mark of a closed mind. If you actually believe the point you're putting forth here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself. Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of, "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and doesn't want to understand."
      - brnt 5y ago
        The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it without dark pattern) however might show you something about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no problem with is or at least understand the pitfall.
beebmam 5y ago
What you've done here is arguing in bad faith. There are reasons behind why people classify something like Grinding for Levels as a dark pattern, and you've straw-manned their argument as "I personally don't like this thing". I hope that you consider editing your comment if you're willing to recognize your premise as an informal fallacy. Please engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  It's not an argument in bad faith, I've been extremely straightforward with my points the entire time. The real strawman here is classifying any leveling system as a 'dark pattern' just because some clearly are. > "I personally don't like this thing". Read their comments; it's obvious that their personal preferences are constraining their viewpoint. They just repeat over and over that others must not be getting any true enjoyment out of levels. Some people are comfortably stubborn when it comes to understanding the perspective of others: > The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value.
  - brnt 5y ago
    > It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value. This is not my viewpoint, nor the point I'm making here. You insist on straw-manning.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      Others insist they see value in it personally, but that doesn’t stop you from calling it “textbook pointlessness”. It’s not a strawman, it’s your actual viewpoint. You just don’t like it being out in the open.

brnt 5y ago

Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for it to be problematic.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
> it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern. > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern. If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
- brnt 5y ago
  > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    > Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. I already addressed this point earlier: > What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question. Was that just because you didn't have a good response that fit your argument? It sure seems like it. > I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. This is just you asserting your own preferences as an Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect." Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even bewildering. Asserting that if other people find different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong is the mark of a closed mind. If you actually believe the point you're putting forth here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself. Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of, "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and doesn't want to understand."
    - brnt 5y ago
      The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it without dark pattern) however might show you something about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no problem with is or at least understand the pitfall.

beebmam 5y ago

What you've done here is arguing in bad faith. There are reasons behind why people classify something like Grinding for Levels as a dark pattern, and you've straw-manned their argument as "I personally don't like this thing". I hope that you consider editing your comment if you're willing to recognize your premise as an informal fallacy. Please engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
It's not an argument in bad faith, I've been extremely straightforward with my points the entire time. The real strawman here is classifying any leveling system as a 'dark pattern' just because some clearly are. > "I personally don't like this thing". Read their comments; it's obvious that their personal preferences are constraining their viewpoint. They just repeat over and over that others must not be getting any true enjoyment out of levels. Some people are comfortably stubborn when it comes to understanding the perspective of others: > The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value.
- brnt 5y ago
  > It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value. This is not my viewpoint, nor the point I'm making here. You insist on straw-manning.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    Others insist they see value in it personally, but that doesn’t stop you from calling it “textbook pointlessness”. It’s not a strawman, it’s your actual viewpoint. You just don’t like it being out in the open.