6 ms·

I actually totally agree. For way longer than I should have did I avoid RPGs because of those systems, because they seemed a silly reduction of "progress". Now

by brnt 5y ago

I actually totally agree. For way longer than I should have did I avoid RPGs because of those systems, because they seemed a silly reduction of "progress". Now that I play RPGs, I still find them pointless annoyances that get in my way of enjoying the world/story. I still don't like that Steam added achievements to my games. I wish I could disable the entire "feature".

TulliusCicero 5y ago
"I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics. Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D. Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted? Probably not, it was just something they thought players would like. And indeed, many players do.
- brnt 5y ago
  Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for it to be problematic.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern. > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern. If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
    - brnt 5y ago
      > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
        > Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. I already addressed this point earlier: > What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question. Was that just because you didn't have a good response that fit your argument? It sure seems like it. > I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. This is just you asserting your own preferences as an Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect." Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even bewildering. Asserting that if other people find different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong is the mark of a closed mind. If you actually believe the point you're putting forth here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself. Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of, "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and doesn't want to understand."
        brnt 5y ago
        The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it without dark pattern) however might show you something about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no problem with is or at least understand the pitfall.
- beebmam 5y ago
  What you've done here is arguing in bad faith. There are reasons behind why people classify something like Grinding for Levels as a dark pattern, and you've straw-manned their argument as "I personally don't like this thing". I hope that you consider editing your comment if you're willing to recognize your premise as an informal fallacy. Please engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    It's not an argument in bad faith, I've been extremely straightforward with my points the entire time. The real strawman here is classifying any leveling system as a 'dark pattern' just because some clearly are. > "I personally don't like this thing". Read their comments; it's obvious that their personal preferences are constraining their viewpoint. They just repeat over and over that others must not be getting any true enjoyment out of levels. Some people are comfortably stubborn when it comes to understanding the perspective of others: > The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value.
    - brnt 5y ago
      > It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value. This is not my viewpoint, nor the point I'm making here. You insist on straw-manning.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
        Others insist they see value in it personally, but that doesn’t stop you from calling it “textbook pointlessness”. It’s not a strawman, it’s your actual viewpoint. You just don’t like it being out in the open.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
Why don't you like achievements? I'm curious. I never cared about them in the past and for most games they are just a little nonsense side bubble that pop up sometimes. But for a few games I've sunk a ton of hours into, mostly rouge likes, they are fun to try to complete.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  I feel similarly sometimes myself. It's like those studies on giving money to little kids when they draw. You're doing something for the intrinsic reward, the joy of playing, and now they've slapped on some extrinsic reward you didn't ask for. So the game makes you feel, on some level, that you're doing it for the extrinsic reward, and it saps some of the intrinsic joy you felt earlier. https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php > So, those who had previously liked drawing (high intrinsic motivation) were less motivated once they expected to be rewarded for the activity. > In fact the expected reward reduced the amount of spontaneous drawing the children did by half.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  As an adult gamer with limited time, I'm not a completionist at all, so I sympathize with feeling that achievements can be kind of naggy, like I'm being scolded for not investing further in a title. Part of that is just facing my own demons— like, Spider-Man PS4 was a super fun time; I played it through twice and got almost all the trophies, but I'm not a bad person for being done with it before getting the platinum. On the other hand, recently playing Nobody Saves The World, I've actually come to enjoy the little mini Form Quests that it gives you— you have to complete something like 200 of these to progress the main story (they award stars that are needed to open key dungeon doors), but more importantly, they encourage you to engage with the mix-and-match abilities system that the game offers, which preps you with the mindset that is needed to take on certain late-game challenges. Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-game completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, 3-, and 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and awarding unlocks at certain milestones of those. So I think I slightly resent but am happy to ignore "bolted on" achievements that are purely observational, but I also appreciate some games that do more with achievement-like challenges in terms of pushing the player to try new strategies.
iaml 5y ago
If you don't wish achievements to appear you can disable steam overlay or download Steam Achievement Manager and 100% all games. One of the reasons devs put them in games, especially those that track chapters completed, is to have a measure of story completion across player base.

by brnt 5y ago

TulliusCicero 5y ago

"I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics. Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D. Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted? Probably not, it was just something they thought players would like. And indeed, many players do.

brnt 5y ago
Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for it to be problematic.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern. > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern. If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
  - brnt 5y ago
    > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      > Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. I already addressed this point earlier: > What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question. Was that just because you didn't have a good response that fit your argument? It sure seems like it. > I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. This is just you asserting your own preferences as an Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect." Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even bewildering. Asserting that if other people find different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong is the mark of a closed mind. If you actually believe the point you're putting forth here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself. Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of, "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and doesn't want to understand."
      - brnt 5y ago
        The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it without dark pattern) however might show you something about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no problem with is or at least understand the pitfall.
beebmam 5y ago
What you've done here is arguing in bad faith. There are reasons behind why people classify something like Grinding for Levels as a dark pattern, and you've straw-manned their argument as "I personally don't like this thing". I hope that you consider editing your comment if you're willing to recognize your premise as an informal fallacy. Please engage with others on Hacker News in good faith.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  It's not an argument in bad faith, I've been extremely straightforward with my points the entire time. The real strawman here is classifying any leveling system as a 'dark pattern' just because some clearly are. > "I personally don't like this thing". Read their comments; it's obvious that their personal preferences are constraining their viewpoint. They just repeat over and over that others must not be getting any true enjoyment out of levels. Some people are comfortably stubborn when it comes to understanding the perspective of others: > The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not actual progress. They don't get you anything but the satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value.
  - brnt 5y ago
    > It's clear as an open blue sky: they don't see the value in it, therefore it must have no real value. This is not my viewpoint, nor the point I'm making here. You insist on straw-manning.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      Others insist they see value in it personally, but that doesn’t stop you from calling it “textbook pointlessness”. It’s not a strawman, it’s your actual viewpoint. You just don’t like it being out in the open.

AlwaysRock 5y ago

Why don't you like achievements? I'm curious. I never cared about them in the past and for most games they are just a little nonsense side bubble that pop up sometimes. But for a few games I've sunk a ton of hours into, mostly rouge likes, they are fun to try to complete.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
I feel similarly sometimes myself. It's like those studies on giving money to little kids when they draw. You're doing something for the intrinsic reward, the joy of playing, and now they've slapped on some extrinsic reward you didn't ask for. So the game makes you feel, on some level, that you're doing it for the extrinsic reward, and it saps some of the intrinsic joy you felt earlier. https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php > So, those who had previously liked drawing (high intrinsic motivation) were less motivated once they expected to be rewarded for the activity. > In fact the expected reward reduced the amount of spontaneous drawing the children did by half.
mikepurvis 5y ago
As an adult gamer with limited time, I'm not a completionist at all, so I sympathize with feeling that achievements can be kind of naggy, like I'm being scolded for not investing further in a title. Part of that is just facing my own demons— like, Spider-Man PS4 was a super fun time; I played it through twice and got almost all the trophies, but I'm not a bad person for being done with it before getting the platinum. On the other hand, recently playing Nobody Saves The World, I've actually come to enjoy the little mini Form Quests that it gives you— you have to complete something like 200 of these to progress the main story (they award stars that are needed to open key dungeon doors), but more importantly, they encourage you to engage with the mix-and-match abilities system that the game offers, which preps you with the mindset that is needed to take on certain late-game challenges. Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-game completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, 3-, and 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and awarding unlocks at certain milestones of those. So I think I slightly resent but am happy to ignore "bolted on" achievements that are purely observational, but I also appreciate some games that do more with achievement-like challenges in terms of pushing the player to try new strategies.

iaml 5y ago

If you don't wish achievements to appear you can disable steam overlay or download Steam Achievement Manager and 100% all games. One of the reasons devs put them in games, especially those that track chapters completed, is to have a measure of story completion across player base.