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Wow, this site has a very low threshold for considering something a 'dark pattern'. If you look at the psychological section, these are all considered dark patt

Wow, this site has a very low threshold for considering something a 'dark pattern'. If you look at the psychological section, these are all considered dark patterns: * A leveling up system * Badges/achievements * Collecting things * Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses That's like...most games, I think? Most single-player games at least probably have at least one of those. edit: some of the examples listed here are hilarious > D4DJ Groovy Mix > "difficulty 1 through 14 is easy to learn and master, while 15 is the hardest difficulty in the game. makes people think that they have 90% of the skill of the best player but in reality it is not the case" > Magic: The Gathering Arena > "There are mysterious matchmaking algorithms. It isn't clear how these work. At face, they appear to match players of similar skill or deck strength."

dmonitor 5y ago
improving in skill creates investment in the game, which is apparently bad according to one of the bullet points. I like the concept and think this is a topic that deserves more attention, but the definition is broad to the point of meaninglessness
brnt 5y ago
I actually totally agree. For way longer than I should have did I avoid RPGs because of those systems, because they seemed a silly reduction of "progress". Now that I play RPGs, I still find them pointless annoyances that get in my way of enjoying the world/story. I still don't like that Steam added achievements to my games. I wish I could disable the entire "feature".
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  "I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics. Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D. Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted? Probably not, it was just something they thought players would like. And indeed, many players do.
  - brnt 5y ago
    Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for it to be problematic.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern. > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern. If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
      - brnt 5y ago
        > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
        TulliusCicero 5y ago
- AlwaysRock 5y ago
  Why don't you like achievements? I'm curious. I never cared about them in the past and for most games they are just a little nonsense side bubble that pop up sometimes. But for a few games I've sunk a ton of hours into, mostly rouge likes, they are fun to try to complete.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    I feel similarly sometimes myself. It's like those studies on giving money to little kids when they draw. You're doing something for the intrinsic reward, the joy of playing, and now they've slapped on some extrinsic reward you didn't ask for. So the game makes you feel, on some level, that you're doing it for the extrinsic reward, and it saps some of the intrinsic joy you felt earlier. https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php > So, those who had previously liked drawing (high intrinsic motivation) were less motivated once they expected to be rewarded for the activity. > In fact the expected reward reduced the amount of spontaneous drawing the children did by half.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    As an adult gamer with limited time, I'm not a completionist at all, so I sympathize with feeling that achievements can be kind of naggy, like I'm being scolded for not investing further in a title. Part of that is just facing my own demons— like, Spider-Man PS4 was a super fun time; I played it through twice and got almost all the trophies, but I'm not a bad person for being done with it before getting the platinum. On the other hand, recently playing Nobody Saves The World, I've actually come to enjoy the little mini Form Quests that it gives you— you have to complete something like 200 of these to progress the main story (they award stars that are needed to open key dungeon doors), but more importantly, they encourage you to engage with the mix-and-match abilities system that the game offers, which preps you with the mindset that is needed to take on certain late-game challenges. Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-game completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, 3-, and 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and awarding unlocks at certain milestones of those. So I think I slightly resent but am happy to ignore "bolted on" achievements that are purely observational, but I also appreciate some games that do more with achievement-like challenges in terms of pushing the player to try new strategies.
- iaml 5y ago
  If you don't wish achievements to appear you can disable steam overlay or download Steam Achievement Manager and 100% all games. One of the reasons devs put them in games, especially those that track chapters completed, is to have a measure of story completion across player base.
madrox 5y ago
I'm not sure if it's a broad definition of dark pattern or a narrow definition of game. This site probably considers sudoku, wordle, and crosswords to be games, but would probably not consider, say, Witcher to be a game...at least not a good one. I kinda see their point.
vitro 5y ago
Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" approaches for something good? Say some education app that hooks you so you can progress and learn more. Are they still called "dark patterns" in this case? Example - badges for tasks you have done or "streaks" or levels to show you how you progress and what you have achieved so far?
- thewebcount 5y ago
  In my opinion, yes. Take for example DuoLingo. It is very aggressive about trying to get you to turn on notifications. They claim that if you have notifications on you're more likely to continue learning at a regular pace. That may be true (though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition). However, my understanding is that they also slip in other notifications about things you might not care about like your "rank" on the "leaderboards". (I'm trying to learn a language, not compete in the Olympics. Why do I need to compare my progress to random strangers around the world?) Some of the dark patterns go away when you subscribe, but not all. Using the app feels really gross, even though I am learning a new language. Many of the dark patterns may have positive outcomes, but it's all still to juice their metrics in the end.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition I wouldn't say that. First, spaced repetition would usually apply to the individual vocabulary items DuoLingo wants you to remember, not to DuoLingo itself. It's a method for choosing which items to review. Second, and related to #1, the learning work in spaced repetition is being done by the repetition part. More repetition is better. Constant repetition will make you learn more effectively than spaced repetition will. What spaced repetition is (successfully) attempting to improve on is the model where you review a fact once and then never look at it again. It's a huge upgrade from that; you'll forget your one-and-done fact very quickly. But it's a huge downgrade from reviewing the fact every day for the rest of your life. It's just that it's also cheaper than that is.
savanaly 5y ago
Agree. There are other types of games besides straightforward puzzle and platforming games!
crooked-v 5y ago
> A leveling up system > Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses These two in particular have been a consistent part of game design for a long time because they ease players into increasing gameplay complexity over time. Metroid games are a simple example: when you start off you can run, jump and shoot, and by the end of the game you're using every button on the controller (sometimes multiple at once) and probably have other abilities you can toggle on and off.
- autoexec 5y ago
  I think it's one of those things that can be good game design, but can also be abused depending on how it's done. In the end, you're still getting that sweet hit of dopamine every time you level or when you get some new cool weapon/item. Games have always exploited that to make their games more fun and addictive. It's nice that the site lists those things for people who are concerned about that or are looking to cut down on your time spent in the skinner box
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    I think categorically calling all of them dark patterns is overselling it though. I really enjoy having tight controls, that probably gives me a hit of dopamine; are good controls now a dark pattern? We get hits of dopamine for things we enjoy, and yet we wouldn't call everything fun in games all dark patterns.
    - autoexec 5y ago
      > I really enjoy having tight controls, that probably gives me a hit of dopamine; are good controls now a dark pattern? There's nothing wrong with a game having good controls, or having a leveling system that exploits our brain's reward system, but knowing which games do it and to what extent they take advantage of it is useful. Just like how good tasting food isn't a bad thing, and my enjoying the taste of apples isn't a dark pattern, but a company that loads up their food with a ton of extra fats, sugars, and salts to make them even more addictive could be considered a dark pattern and a website listing snacks that contain a bunch of added fats, sugars, and salts might be very useful to folks looking for healthy options. I don't see why it should be any different for a site listing "healthy" games. If you aren't worried about the amount of dark patterns in your games at all don't bother going to the website. If you only care about some (loot boxes) but not others (level ups) this site has them all listed out for you so either way you'll know what you're getting.
gfody 5y ago
otoh I looked up a few games my kids play that I consider to be flagrantly evil (genshin, gardenscapes, emojiblitz) and they all score a "neutral" here
- svachalek 5y ago
  Oh wow. Gardenscapes is basically just every conceivable dark pattern wrapped up into a bland and friendly looking package. This database suffers badly from not having enough votes on anything, but at 20 or so voters this has more than most. Maybe the whole Gardenscapes staff? https://www.darkpattern.games/game/50/0/gardenscapes.html https://www.darkpattern.games/game/50/0/gardenscapes.html
bradly 5y ago
Arena is pretty bad. Definitely dark patterns are being used with their gold/gem economy.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
Badges and achievements definitely are a dark pattern. You can tell they are because game developers have gone so overboard on them now that you are like, oh I got a badge, yes I'll claim it, no I haven't a clue what it does... The rest of the things you identify, as you say, that's just games. (I think this website is a very, very good idea)
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  I think this is a case where it may be vary by personality. Some people may feel compelled to get achievements even when they don't really enjoy the experience. It feels like a dark pattern to them. Some people really enjoy the process of getting achievements, and are disappointed when they discover a new game doesn't have them. It doesn't feel like a dark pattern to them.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Badges and achievements definitely are a dark pattern. You can tell they are because game developers have gone so overboard on them now that you are like, oh I got a badge, yes I'll claim it, no I haven't a clue what it does... Identifying something as a dark pattern for no other reason than that it's common doesn't make any sense. I find the explanation convincing that the reason for so many achievements in games is that Steam will report completion rates for each achievement to the developer, and developers want to know things like "what percentage of players complete the tutorial?".
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    > Identifying something as a dark pattern for no other reason than that it's common doesn't make any sense. That's not what I am saying, but it might not be clear. What I mean is, that pattern is so common in "free to play, pay to advance" games that it is now a kind of "noise" pattern -- it has infected all games in the way that Upworthy's headline writing style ("X Will Drop Your Jaw And It Is Amazing") has infected all writing. These are dark patterns because they manipulate the reader or player into doing something irrational. The fact that these things are now so commonplace as to be self-satirising doesn't make them good patterns.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
This bar is not low at all. Anything involving reward can cause addiction and harm. All of those things you cited are just methods of scheduling rewards. You level up every X amount of time, you get an item every Y amount of time. These things are not some unforeseen emergent feature, they are deliberately designed. What makes it malicious is the behavior these rewards are designed to create. An RPG using a leveling system to make sure you can't survive certain challenges until you've progressed enough is not malicious at all. An RPG that pits players against each other, imposes the same leveling system on players, rates limit their progression with a timer and allows people to reset the timer by paying money essentially turns the game into a spending competition whose goal is to see who can pay some corporation the most money. Not to mention their blatant attempt to form habits in players by giving them daily login rewards and tasks.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  > An RPG using a leveling system to make sure you can't survive certain challenges until you've progressed enough is not malicious at all. I agree with the distinction you're making here -- it can be used to malicious ends, but isn't always -- but saying that it's categorically a "dark pattern" is still making a judgment, and that's what the website is doing. Read the webpage yourself if you don't believe me: https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/24/invested-endowed-value.html https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/24/invested-endowed-va... Note that not only does the body text make no distinction between reasonable vs malicious use of leveling systems, the examples make it clear that they consider all forms of this to be tainted: > Galaga Wars > "The more time you play, the more ships you get." > DISGAEA RPG > "Owned character progress and levelling up." Even if you try to say, "well, it's a dark pattern that can be completely non-malicious," well, that's just shitty UX if you're gonna label things misleadingly like that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- p1necone 5y ago
  The distinction between your two examples is not in the specific game design techniques. In your first example the game designers are trying to make their game more enjoyable for players. In the second example they're trying to extract more money out of players. Listing a bunch of different game design tools that might be used to try to extract money out of people by a dishonest developer is missing the point because the specific mechanics are irrelevant, as you've pointed out with your examples.

dmonitor 5y ago

improving in skill creates investment in the game, which is apparently bad according to one of the bullet points. I like the concept and think this is a topic that deserves more attention, but the definition is broad to the point of meaninglessness

brnt 5y ago

I actually totally agree. For way longer than I should have did I avoid RPGs because of those systems, because they seemed a silly reduction of "progress". Now that I play RPGs, I still find them pointless annoyances that get in my way of enjoying the world/story. I still don't like that Steam added achievements to my games. I wish I could disable the entire "feature".

TulliusCicero 5y ago
"I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics. Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D. Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted? Probably not, it was just something they thought players would like. And indeed, many players do.
- brnt 5y ago
  Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for it to be problematic.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned into one, is it? Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark pattern. > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too then? To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy the specific game element itself, if taking it away would make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, then it's not really a dark pattern. If you removed levels and similar systems of progression from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My bet is less.
    - brnt 5y ago
      > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a mechanic is being used to push people to play the game more past what they actually enjoy. Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
      - TulliusCicero 5y ago
AlwaysRock 5y ago
Why don't you like achievements? I'm curious. I never cared about them in the past and for most games they are just a little nonsense side bubble that pop up sometimes. But for a few games I've sunk a ton of hours into, mostly rouge likes, they are fun to try to complete.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  I feel similarly sometimes myself. It's like those studies on giving money to little kids when they draw. You're doing something for the intrinsic reward, the joy of playing, and now they've slapped on some extrinsic reward you didn't ask for. So the game makes you feel, on some level, that you're doing it for the extrinsic reward, and it saps some of the intrinsic joy you felt earlier. https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php > So, those who had previously liked drawing (high intrinsic motivation) were less motivated once they expected to be rewarded for the activity. > In fact the expected reward reduced the amount of spontaneous drawing the children did by half.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  As an adult gamer with limited time, I'm not a completionist at all, so I sympathize with feeling that achievements can be kind of naggy, like I'm being scolded for not investing further in a title. Part of that is just facing my own demons— like, Spider-Man PS4 was a super fun time; I played it through twice and got almost all the trophies, but I'm not a bad person for being done with it before getting the platinum. On the other hand, recently playing Nobody Saves The World, I've actually come to enjoy the little mini Form Quests that it gives you— you have to complete something like 200 of these to progress the main story (they award stars that are needed to open key dungeon doors), but more importantly, they encourage you to engage with the mix-and-match abilities system that the game offers, which preps you with the mindset that is needed to take on certain late-game challenges. Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-game completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, 3-, and 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and awarding unlocks at certain milestones of those. So I think I slightly resent but am happy to ignore "bolted on" achievements that are purely observational, but I also appreciate some games that do more with achievement-like challenges in terms of pushing the player to try new strategies.
iaml 5y ago
If you don't wish achievements to appear you can disable steam overlay or download Steam Achievement Manager and 100% all games. One of the reasons devs put them in games, especially those that track chapters completed, is to have a measure of story completion across player base.

madrox 5y ago

I'm not sure if it's a broad definition of dark pattern or a narrow definition of game. This site probably considers sudoku, wordle, and crosswords to be games, but would probably not consider, say, Witcher to be a game...at least not a good one. I kinda see their point.

vitro 5y ago

Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" approaches for something good? Say some education app that hooks you so you can progress and learn more. Are they still called "dark patterns" in this case? Example - badges for tasks you have done or "streaks" or levels to show you how you progress and what you have achieved so far?

thewebcount 5y ago
In my opinion, yes. Take for example DuoLingo. It is very aggressive about trying to get you to turn on notifications. They claim that if you have notifications on you're more likely to continue learning at a regular pace. That may be true (though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition). However, my understanding is that they also slip in other notifications about things you might not care about like your "rank" on the "leaderboards". (I'm trying to learn a language, not compete in the Olympics. Why do I need to compare my progress to random strangers around the world?) Some of the dark patterns go away when you subscribe, but not all. Using the app feels really gross, even though I am learning a new language. Many of the dark patterns may have positive outcomes, but it's all still to juice their metrics in the end.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > though spaced repetition seems best, and they use "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, which is the opposite of spaced repetition I wouldn't say that. First, spaced repetition would usually apply to the individual vocabulary items DuoLingo wants you to remember, not to DuoLingo itself. It's a method for choosing which items to review. Second, and related to #1, the learning work in spaced repetition is being done by the repetition part. More repetition is better. Constant repetition will make you learn more effectively than spaced repetition will. What spaced repetition is (successfully) attempting to improve on is the model where you review a fact once and then never look at it again. It's a huge upgrade from that; you'll forget your one-and-done fact very quickly. But it's a huge downgrade from reviewing the fact every day for the rest of your life. It's just that it's also cheaper than that is.

savanaly 5y ago

Agree. There are other types of games besides straightforward puzzle and platforming games!

crooked-v 5y ago

> A leveling up system > Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses These two in particular have been a consistent part of game design for a long time because they ease players into increasing gameplay complexity over time. Metroid games are a simple example: when you start off you can run, jump and shoot, and by the end of the game you're using every button on the controller (sometimes multiple at once) and probably have other abilities you can toggle on and off.

autoexec 5y ago
I think it's one of those things that can be good game design, but can also be abused depending on how it's done. In the end, you're still getting that sweet hit of dopamine every time you level or when you get some new cool weapon/item. Games have always exploited that to make their games more fun and addictive. It's nice that the site lists those things for people who are concerned about that or are looking to cut down on your time spent in the skinner box
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  I think categorically calling all of them dark patterns is overselling it though. I really enjoy having tight controls, that probably gives me a hit of dopamine; are good controls now a dark pattern? We get hits of dopamine for things we enjoy, and yet we wouldn't call everything fun in games all dark patterns.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    > I really enjoy having tight controls, that probably gives me a hit of dopamine; are good controls now a dark pattern? There's nothing wrong with a game having good controls, or having a leveling system that exploits our brain's reward system, but knowing which games do it and to what extent they take advantage of it is useful. Just like how good tasting food isn't a bad thing, and my enjoying the taste of apples isn't a dark pattern, but a company that loads up their food with a ton of extra fats, sugars, and salts to make them even more addictive could be considered a dark pattern and a website listing snacks that contain a bunch of added fats, sugars, and salts might be very useful to folks looking for healthy options. I don't see why it should be any different for a site listing "healthy" games. If you aren't worried about the amount of dark patterns in your games at all don't bother going to the website. If you only care about some (loot boxes) but not others (level ups) this site has them all listed out for you so either way you'll know what you're getting.

gfody 5y ago

otoh I looked up a few games my kids play that I consider to be flagrantly evil (genshin, gardenscapes, emojiblitz) and they all score a "neutral" here

svachalek 5y ago
Oh wow. Gardenscapes is basically just every conceivable dark pattern wrapped up into a bland and friendly looking package. This database suffers badly from not having enough votes on anything, but at 20 or so voters this has more than most. Maybe the whole Gardenscapes staff? https://www.darkpattern.games/game/50/0/gardenscapes.html https://www.darkpattern.games/game/50/0/gardenscapes.html

bradly 5y ago

Arena is pretty bad. Definitely dark patterns are being used with their gold/gem economy.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

Badges and achievements definitely are a dark pattern. You can tell they are because game developers have gone so overboard on them now that you are like, oh I got a badge, yes I'll claim it, no I haven't a clue what it does... The rest of the things you identify, as you say, that's just games. (I think this website is a very, very good idea)

TulliusCicero 5y ago
I think this is a case where it may be vary by personality. Some people may feel compelled to get achievements even when they don't really enjoy the experience. It feels like a dark pattern to them. Some people really enjoy the process of getting achievements, and are disappointed when they discover a new game doesn't have them. It doesn't feel like a dark pattern to them.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Badges and achievements definitely are a dark pattern. You can tell they are because game developers have gone so overboard on them now that you are like, oh I got a badge, yes I'll claim it, no I haven't a clue what it does... Identifying something as a dark pattern for no other reason than that it's common doesn't make any sense. I find the explanation convincing that the reason for so many achievements in games is that Steam will report completion rates for each achievement to the developer, and developers want to know things like "what percentage of players complete the tutorial?".
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  > Identifying something as a dark pattern for no other reason than that it's common doesn't make any sense. That's not what I am saying, but it might not be clear. What I mean is, that pattern is so common in "free to play, pay to advance" games that it is now a kind of "noise" pattern -- it has infected all games in the way that Upworthy's headline writing style ("X Will Drop Your Jaw And It Is Amazing") has infected all writing. These are dark patterns because they manipulate the reader or player into doing something irrational. The fact that these things are now so commonplace as to be self-satirising doesn't make them good patterns.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

This bar is not low at all. Anything involving reward can cause addiction and harm. All of those things you cited are just methods of scheduling rewards. You level up every X amount of time, you get an item every Y amount of time. These things are not some unforeseen emergent feature, they are deliberately designed. What makes it malicious is the behavior these rewards are designed to create. An RPG using a leveling system to make sure you can't survive certain challenges until you've progressed enough is not malicious at all. An RPG that pits players against each other, imposes the same leveling system on players, rates limit their progression with a timer and allows people to reset the timer by paying money essentially turns the game into a spending competition whose goal is to see who can pay some corporation the most money. Not to mention their blatant attempt to form habits in players by giving them daily login rewards and tasks.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
> An RPG using a leveling system to make sure you can't survive certain challenges until you've progressed enough is not malicious at all. I agree with the distinction you're making here -- it can be used to malicious ends, but isn't always -- but saying that it's categorically a "dark pattern" is still making a judgment, and that's what the website is doing. Read the webpage yourself if you don't believe me: https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/24/invested-endowed-value.html https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/24/invested-endowed-va... Note that not only does the body text make no distinction between reasonable vs malicious use of leveling systems, the examples make it clear that they consider all forms of this to be tainted: > Galaga Wars > "The more time you play, the more ships you get." > DISGAEA RPG > "Owned character progress and levelling up." Even if you try to say, "well, it's a dark pattern that can be completely non-malicious," well, that's just shitty UX if you're gonna label things misleadingly like that.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
p1necone 5y ago
The distinction between your two examples is not in the specific game design techniques. In your first example the game designers are trying to make their game more enjoyable for players. In the second example they're trying to extract more money out of players. Listing a bunch of different game design tools that might be used to try to extract money out of people by a dishonest developer is missing the point because the specific mechanics are irrelevant, as you've pointed out with your examples.