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I don't buy the security issue scare-mongering from Apple if they are required to open up their platform. Bruce Schneier points out the flaws in Apple's argumen

by itg 5y ago

I don't buy the security issue scare-mongering from Apple if they are required to open up their platform. Bruce Schneier points out the flaws in Apple's argument very well in his letter https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2022/01/letter-to-the-us-senate-judiciary-committee-on-app-stores.html https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2022/01/letter-to-t....

anonymouse008 5y ago
If I paid for Apple's centralization, by buying their products, and now that's being forcefully removed from me. How is this ok?
- olyjohn 5y ago
  What's being removed from you again? Don't sideload apps if you don't like sideloading. Keep using Apple's app store if you like it, or maybe in the future, you will find you like an app store better than Apple's. We will never find out if someone does it better than Apple, if nobody can even try.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    This is such a facetious argument. You know that developers will end up using alternate App Stores. Which means I will be forced to use them if I want to continue to use the app.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      What developers will do that? Android has alternate stores, and there isn't any vendor lock-in. The Amazon and Samsung Android alternatives to the Play Store aren't huge competitors. Epic hasn't tried to build their alternative Android app store yet with Fortnite as an exclusive. This is all scare-mongering about what could happen but probably won't happen. Name a single major Android app that's located on an alternative app store.
    - idle_zealot 5y ago
      > You know that developers will end up using alternate App Stores This keeps being stated as though it’s a foregone conclusion. All evidence points to the contrary. Look at Google Play. Android has allowed third-party stores since inception and yet the only stores that see any notable use are the ones that ship on devices, i.e. Google Play and to a much smaller extent OEM stores (at least in the English market). So no, it is not likely that you will have to install another store. Just like most Android users only ever touch the Play Store most iOS users will only ever touch the App Store. The only notable stores I expect to see from this are an Epic Games store that basically just has Fortnite on it, and some community-driven F-Droid-like.
  - anonymouse008 5y ago
    > What's being removed from you again? Don't sideload apps if you don't like sideloading. Keep using Apple's app store if you like it, or maybe in the future, you will find you like an app store better than Apple's. We will never find out if someone does it better than Apple, if nobody can even try. Um, the fact I've told any semi-non-competent person to buy iPhone because it very specifically won't screw up like the popup ridden land of Android.
    - root_axis 5y ago
      > Um, the fact I've told any semi-non-competent person to buy iPhone because it very specifically won't screw up like the popup ridden land of Android. How does this relate to your original comment claiming you're losing something you paid for?
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      And if Apple can't keep the quality of their software from falling to that level, just because of being slightly more open, then that is their failure.
      - toqy 5y ago
        What? They’ve already prevented it from falling to that level. If that is changed through legislation how is it their failure?
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        Because they exercise enough control over their platform, the App Store is far from the only avenue of protection.
- andrewjl 5y ago
  How is it forcefully being removed from you?
  - anonymouse008 5y ago
    I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone. That's the thesis for a treatise I could write. This breaks the contract I had with them upon purchase.
    - idle_zealot 5y ago
      That’s not true though. Users can already sign and sideload apps from a Mac. It’s just that doing so imposes annoyances (have to manually update apps, and resign every week). Allowing proper sideloading would only eliminate annoyances associated with current capabilities.
    - andrewjl 5y ago
      > I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone. Any software license you may have purchased is a non-exclusive one. Apple can re-license their own software however they wish.
- dmz73 5y ago
  Apple's centralization is not forcefully removed, you can choose to keep using only Apple approved software from Apple store and you will not see any difference. This change would just allows you to install software from another source if you wish. If Apple implements the change similar to how Android works, you will have to allow installation from non-Apple store sources, you can do it per app, you can do it once and then disable it, you can allow main app store to scan all your apps for security. If you are arguing that some people will be tricked into installing malware from other sources then you are right that this change would allow that but it will still require user to go through few steps which should raise red flags for them. Some people just can't resist pushing that button without thinking and regardless of the consequences and in that case app store safety net is just temporary anyway, they are still exposed to the real world where that will harm them in a more serious way.
  - anonymouse008 5y ago
    > If you are arguing that some people will be tricked into installing malware from other sources then you are right that this change would allow that but it will still require user to go through few steps which should raise red flags for them. Some people just can't resist pushing that button without thinking and regardless of the consequences and in that case app store safety net is just temporary anyway, they are still exposed to the real world where that will harm them in a more serious way. I seriously could care less what we as HN want out of a phone in a way. We are head strong enough to do something different for ourselves -- literally look at PinePhone, etc. What I'm concerned about is the trickery that is sinister beyond belief, getting access that they never earned and do not deserve. Here's an example: https://youtu.be/VrKW58MS12g?t=406 https://youtu.be/VrKW58MS12g?t=406 This 'hack' is quite insane... Brillant and horrid... and I foresee it happening left and right.
    - hedora 5y ago
      Yeah; these glitterbomb avengers are contributing to a national airbnb shortage. Seriously though, I have a hand typed letter from the mid 80's running a similar scam. If anything, technology has made this sort of thing riskier for the scammers. Consider how you'd reproduce the vigilante's setup using 1980's technology. It probably wouldn't be feasible.
stuff4ben 5y ago
Thanks for that link to Schneier's letter! He breaks down the bills and provides relevant and cogent arguments to both Apple and Google's positions which I hadn't considered.

by itg 5y ago

anonymouse008 5y ago

If I paid for Apple's centralization, by buying their products, and now that's being forcefully removed from me. How is this ok?

olyjohn 5y ago
What's being removed from you again? Don't sideload apps if you don't like sideloading. Keep using Apple's app store if you like it, or maybe in the future, you will find you like an app store better than Apple's. We will never find out if someone does it better than Apple, if nobody can even try.
- threeseed 5y ago
  This is such a facetious argument. You know that developers will end up using alternate App Stores. Which means I will be forced to use them if I want to continue to use the app.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    What developers will do that? Android has alternate stores, and there isn't any vendor lock-in. The Amazon and Samsung Android alternatives to the Play Store aren't huge competitors. Epic hasn't tried to build their alternative Android app store yet with Fortnite as an exclusive. This is all scare-mongering about what could happen but probably won't happen. Name a single major Android app that's located on an alternative app store.
  - idle_zealot 5y ago
    > You know that developers will end up using alternate App Stores This keeps being stated as though it’s a foregone conclusion. All evidence points to the contrary. Look at Google Play. Android has allowed third-party stores since inception and yet the only stores that see any notable use are the ones that ship on devices, i.e. Google Play and to a much smaller extent OEM stores (at least in the English market). So no, it is not likely that you will have to install another store. Just like most Android users only ever touch the Play Store most iOS users will only ever touch the App Store. The only notable stores I expect to see from this are an Epic Games store that basically just has Fortnite on it, and some community-driven F-Droid-like.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  > What's being removed from you again? Don't sideload apps if you don't like sideloading. Keep using Apple's app store if you like it, or maybe in the future, you will find you like an app store better than Apple's. We will never find out if someone does it better than Apple, if nobody can even try. Um, the fact I've told any semi-non-competent person to buy iPhone because it very specifically won't screw up like the popup ridden land of Android.
  - root_axis 5y ago
    > Um, the fact I've told any semi-non-competent person to buy iPhone because it very specifically won't screw up like the popup ridden land of Android. How does this relate to your original comment claiming you're losing something you paid for?
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    And if Apple can't keep the quality of their software from falling to that level, just because of being slightly more open, then that is their failure.
    - toqy 5y ago
      What? They’ve already prevented it from falling to that level. If that is changed through legislation how is it their failure?
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        Because they exercise enough control over their platform, the App Store is far from the only avenue of protection.
andrewjl 5y ago
How is it forcefully being removed from you?
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone. That's the thesis for a treatise I could write. This breaks the contract I had with them upon purchase.
  - idle_zealot 5y ago
    That’s not true though. Users can already sign and sideload apps from a Mac. It’s just that doing so imposes annoyances (have to manually update apps, and resign every week). Allowing proper sideloading would only eliminate annoyances associated with current capabilities.
  - andrewjl 5y ago
    > I purchased my goods with the express contract that the AppStore will be the only way a developer gets access to Apple's APIs, Libraries, and instruction sets for iPhone. Any software license you may have purchased is a non-exclusive one. Apple can re-license their own software however they wish.
dmz73 5y ago
Apple's centralization is not forcefully removed, you can choose to keep using only Apple approved software from Apple store and you will not see any difference. This change would just allows you to install software from another source if you wish. If Apple implements the change similar to how Android works, you will have to allow installation from non-Apple store sources, you can do it per app, you can do it once and then disable it, you can allow main app store to scan all your apps for security. If you are arguing that some people will be tricked into installing malware from other sources then you are right that this change would allow that but it will still require user to go through few steps which should raise red flags for them. Some people just can't resist pushing that button without thinking and regardless of the consequences and in that case app store safety net is just temporary anyway, they are still exposed to the real world where that will harm them in a more serious way.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  > If you are arguing that some people will be tricked into installing malware from other sources then you are right that this change would allow that but it will still require user to go through few steps which should raise red flags for them. Some people just can't resist pushing that button without thinking and regardless of the consequences and in that case app store safety net is just temporary anyway, they are still exposed to the real world where that will harm them in a more serious way. I seriously could care less what we as HN want out of a phone in a way. We are head strong enough to do something different for ourselves -- literally look at PinePhone, etc. What I'm concerned about is the trickery that is sinister beyond belief, getting access that they never earned and do not deserve. Here's an example: https://youtu.be/VrKW58MS12g?t=406 https://youtu.be/VrKW58MS12g?t=406 This 'hack' is quite insane... Brillant and horrid... and I foresee it happening left and right.
  - hedora 5y ago
    Yeah; these glitterbomb avengers are contributing to a national airbnb shortage. Seriously though, I have a hand typed letter from the mid 80's running a similar scam. If anything, technology has made this sort of thing riskier for the scammers. Consider how you'd reproduce the vigilante's setup using 1980's technology. It probably wouldn't be feasible.

stuff4ben 5y ago

Thanks for that link to Schneier's letter! He breaks down the bills and provides relevant and cogent arguments to both Apple and Google's positions which I hadn't considered.