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I really don't like Dan Ambramov's style of communication. It's terse, impersonal and authoritative in a way that implies an attitude of "I'm right, you're wron

I really don't like Dan Ambramov's style of communication. It's terse, impersonal and authoritative in a way that implies an attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong, stop wasting my time and go away". In my decade plus of experience in the software industry this has been a reliable indicator of the type of people I don't enjoy collaborating with.

______-_-______ 5y ago
He was asked the question, "can I use this field named DO_NOT_USE", so I'll forgive him for being blunt in this case.
tantalor 5y ago
I had the opposite reaction. I'd be happy to collaborate with such a person.
tptacek 5y ago
He's right, they're wrong, and the conversation was on track to be a waste of time. I'm impressed by how this was handled.
bognition 5y ago
I didn't read it as "I'm right, your wrong" but "I own this API and provide no guarantees things will not break, take it or leave it."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
AndriyKunitsyn 5y ago
Is it about his answers in the thread, or in general? How should he have sugarcoated it? I'm not sure it's wrong in this case specifically, because an answer to a question like "can I stick my fingers into a power socket" shouldn't be "I'm not sure it's a good idea and we don't support it, but you be you", it should be more like "hey, don't do it, you'll die".
MikeBVaughn 5y ago
I mean, I'm the kind of guy to obsessively worry about diplomacy in professional communications, and my first impulse still would have been to respond with "no" and close the issue, so as far as I'm concerned, he's well ahead of the curve. I really don't want to put the question-asker on blast, because software is hard, and sometimes you're trapped in a quagmire and just need to fire out a question, but I'm not sure how many ways there are to respond to 'is it safe to push the button labeled "don't push this button, it's unsafe to push it, it's bad to push it, please don't push it, dear God just don't"?' Time is finite and some questions just aren't very good questions. When I feel the need to contact developers about their code, I tend to think long and hard about whether them responding to my question is a good use of their time. I feel very uncomfortable making requests of others' time frivolously, and asking "is it safe to use this field in production?" would have made me feel as if I was making a fairly brazen demand to address what is ultimately a self-answering question. I probably would have spent some time thinking "is there something different and more useful that I can ask instead?" In this regard, Dan Ambramov did a good job, as far as I can tell, of iterating and eliciting a useful, actionable feature request from the question-asker. He converted what could have been a negative interaction for both parties into something that potentially improves the project, and it's hard to ask for too much more.
pessimizer 5y ago
I read it, and he seemed entirely polite and cheery. Is there any way to refuse something that can't be read as rude by someone?
0xTJ 5y ago
To me, that's a pretty appropriate reaction. Someone is abusing something that is very explicitly not for that use. At some point, you have to be firm that what's being done is bad, and it being bad should be obvious.
pictur 5y ago
Independent of this subject, he is a very strange person in communication. Take a look at the tweets he shared on his twitter account and you will understand what I mean.
- danabramov 5y ago
  Which of my tweets do you find strange? (If you don't mind sharing :)
  - pictur 5y ago
    - danabramov 5y ago
      I don't think I claimed it makes me cute? If I want to put a smiley, I do. I asked you a question because I was curious. If you don't want to elaborate and prefer to nitpick on my punctuation, that's cool with me.
      - pictur 5y ago
        you are right. sorry for my style. I don't like your communication style. only this.
yen223 5y ago
How would you have responded to the person asking, if you were in Dan's position?
nexuist 5y ago
Some of this is probably culture shock. Dan grew up in Russia and immigrated to the UK. Russian engineering material is usually very direct. If you do something stupid, then it will say what you are doing is stupid. There is no thought towards the feelings of whoever is told they're doing something stupid. Western textbooks for better or worse try to not be as scathing and try to gently let the reader know that they are going down the wrong path. I much prefer the Russian approach. We are professionals doing professional work, our feelings are not part of it and if your ego matters to you that's your own problem. It is objectively stupid to use something named __SECRET_INTERNALS_DO_NOT_USE_OR_YOU_WILL_BE_FIRED because, even if it works, you're not meant to use it! And they made it very, very, unmistakably clear. Dan did the right thing by not budging.
- danabramov 5y ago
  To be clear, I don’t think the person is stupid, and I don’t believe I’ve called them stupid. I appreciate the intent to support me, but I also find it a bit of a stretch that answering “is DO_NOT_USE supported” with “no, it’s not supported” must be a consequence of a culture shock. :) But I’m biased so idk. I didn’t get the impression from the reader that they were a beginner, or someone struggling, or someone who doesn’t “know they’re on the wrong path”. My impression was that a professional came to get an authoritative answer on a level of support of an API, and I tried to provide it.
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Oh, I didn't think you were calling them stupid! That's part of what I mean as the culture shock - that Westerners will respond to being told they're doing something stupid as if it was an insult to themselves, and not an insult on what they're doing, disregarding the fact that smart people can do stupid things and vice versa. What the OP was trying to do _is_ stupid, but that doesn't make them a stupid person. They could in fact be a very experienced engineer who has delivered beautiful and capable web apps. I don't believe your intent was to make the OP feel stupid, but perhaps the lack of sugarcoating and straightforwardness of your response makes it seem like that. I don't think you were impolite either, it's just that terse responses usually signal impatience and may get misconstrued as anger, despite the intent being to clearly communicate a simple message.
danabramov 5y ago
Thank you for your feedback. How would you suggest that I should have responded to this issue instead? I agree that my response was authoritative, but I believe that is what was asked (the issue is seeking an authoritative “official” answer). And from the perspective of not wanting to break this person’s code (or anyone who stumbles upon similar advice), the authoritative “official” answer is an unequivocal no, “this is not supported”, as the name of the property states. Though, like I mentioned, we can’t really tell anyone what to do in their own code, so at best we can say what’s supported and what’s not.
- nmfisher 5y ago
  I clicked the link to see what OP's problem was, and I really can't understand how anybody could take issue with the way you write. I don't use React and I've never come across your name before today, so I think I'm a fairly objective observer. I would prefer that more people wrote like you do - clear, concise and to the point.
valtism 5y ago
This blows my mind. Dan deals with so much belligerent user feedback and is nearly always positive, understanding and polite. To me he is the gold standard of open source communication.

______-_-______ 5y ago

He was asked the question, "can I use this field named DO_NOT_USE", so I'll forgive him for being blunt in this case.

tantalor 5y ago

I had the opposite reaction. I'd be happy to collaborate with such a person.

tptacek 5y ago

He's right, they're wrong, and the conversation was on track to be a waste of time. I'm impressed by how this was handled.

bognition 5y ago

I didn't read it as "I'm right, your wrong" but "I own this API and provide no guarantees things will not break, take it or leave it."

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

AndriyKunitsyn 5y ago

Is it about his answers in the thread, or in general? How should he have sugarcoated it? I'm not sure it's wrong in this case specifically, because an answer to a question like "can I stick my fingers into a power socket" shouldn't be "I'm not sure it's a good idea and we don't support it, but you be you", it should be more like "hey, don't do it, you'll die".

MikeBVaughn 5y ago

I mean, I'm the kind of guy to obsessively worry about diplomacy in professional communications, and my first impulse still would have been to respond with "no" and close the issue, so as far as I'm concerned, he's well ahead of the curve. I really don't want to put the question-asker on blast, because software is hard, and sometimes you're trapped in a quagmire and just need to fire out a question, but I'm not sure how many ways there are to respond to 'is it safe to push the button labeled "don't push this button, it's unsafe to push it, it's bad to push it, please don't push it, dear God just don't"?' Time is finite and some questions just aren't very good questions. When I feel the need to contact developers about their code, I tend to think long and hard about whether them responding to my question is a good use of their time. I feel very uncomfortable making requests of others' time frivolously, and asking "is it safe to use this field in production?" would have made me feel as if I was making a fairly brazen demand to address what is ultimately a self-answering question. I probably would have spent some time thinking "is there something different and more useful that I can ask instead?" In this regard, Dan Ambramov did a good job, as far as I can tell, of iterating and eliciting a useful, actionable feature request from the question-asker. He converted what could have been a negative interaction for both parties into something that potentially improves the project, and it's hard to ask for too much more.

pessimizer 5y ago

I read it, and he seemed entirely polite and cheery. Is there any way to refuse something that can't be read as rude by someone?

0xTJ 5y ago

To me, that's a pretty appropriate reaction. Someone is abusing something that is very explicitly not for that use. At some point, you have to be firm that what's being done is bad, and it being bad should be obvious.

pictur 5y ago

Independent of this subject, he is a very strange person in communication. Take a look at the tweets he shared on his twitter account and you will understand what I mean.

danabramov 5y ago
Which of my tweets do you find strange? (If you don't mind sharing :)
- pictur 5y ago
  - danabramov 5y ago
    I don't think I claimed it makes me cute? If I want to put a smiley, I do. I asked you a question because I was curious. If you don't want to elaborate and prefer to nitpick on my punctuation, that's cool with me.
    - pictur 5y ago
      you are right. sorry for my style. I don't like your communication style. only this.

yen223 5y ago

How would you have responded to the person asking, if you were in Dan's position?

nexuist 5y ago

Some of this is probably culture shock. Dan grew up in Russia and immigrated to the UK. Russian engineering material is usually very direct. If you do something stupid, then it will say what you are doing is stupid. There is no thought towards the feelings of whoever is told they're doing something stupid. Western textbooks for better or worse try to not be as scathing and try to gently let the reader know that they are going down the wrong path. I much prefer the Russian approach. We are professionals doing professional work, our feelings are not part of it and if your ego matters to you that's your own problem. It is objectively stupid to use something named __SECRET_INTERNALS_DO_NOT_USE_OR_YOU_WILL_BE_FIRED because, even if it works, you're not meant to use it! And they made it very, very, unmistakably clear. Dan did the right thing by not budging.

danabramov 5y ago
To be clear, I don’t think the person is stupid, and I don’t believe I’ve called them stupid. I appreciate the intent to support me, but I also find it a bit of a stretch that answering “is DO_NOT_USE supported” with “no, it’s not supported” must be a consequence of a culture shock. :) But I’m biased so idk. I didn’t get the impression from the reader that they were a beginner, or someone struggling, or someone who doesn’t “know they’re on the wrong path”. My impression was that a professional came to get an authoritative answer on a level of support of an API, and I tried to provide it.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Oh, I didn't think you were calling them stupid! That's part of what I mean as the culture shock - that Westerners will respond to being told they're doing something stupid as if it was an insult to themselves, and not an insult on what they're doing, disregarding the fact that smart people can do stupid things and vice versa. What the OP was trying to do _is_ stupid, but that doesn't make them a stupid person. They could in fact be a very experienced engineer who has delivered beautiful and capable web apps. I don't believe your intent was to make the OP feel stupid, but perhaps the lack of sugarcoating and straightforwardness of your response makes it seem like that. I don't think you were impolite either, it's just that terse responses usually signal impatience and may get misconstrued as anger, despite the intent being to clearly communicate a simple message.

danabramov 5y ago

Thank you for your feedback. How would you suggest that I should have responded to this issue instead? I agree that my response was authoritative, but I believe that is what was asked (the issue is seeking an authoritative “official” answer). And from the perspective of not wanting to break this person’s code (or anyone who stumbles upon similar advice), the authoritative “official” answer is an unequivocal no, “this is not supported”, as the name of the property states. Though, like I mentioned, we can’t really tell anyone what to do in their own code, so at best we can say what’s supported and what’s not.

nmfisher 5y ago
I clicked the link to see what OP's problem was, and I really can't understand how anybody could take issue with the way you write. I don't use React and I've never come across your name before today, so I think I'm a fairly objective observer. I would prefer that more people wrote like you do - clear, concise and to the point.

valtism 5y ago

This blows my mind. Dan deals with so much belligerent user feedback and is nearly always positive, understanding and polite. To me he is the gold standard of open source communication.