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I personally can’t wait for students to be forced to install apps from third party stores that collect all their information because their schools have a contra

by nojito 5y ago

I personally can’t wait for students to be forced to install apps from third party stores that collect all their information because their schools have a contract with the developers and have made it mandatory. Same will be true of employees and their employers.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> can’t wait for students to be forced to install apps from third party stores that collect all their information I'm similarly wary. But Apple and Google have been bad stewards of their market power. If the only thing protecting our rights is Cupertino's goodwill, perhaps that's an orthogonal issue for lawmakers to take up (and citizens to lobby for).
- dodobirdlord 5y ago
  > But Apple and Google have been bad stewards of their market power. Can you explain how? Because I don’t think they have at all. App developers are not their customers, they are business partners, and prioritizing customers over business partners is laudable.
realusername 5y ago
That's already the case with the appstore. If you value privacy, don't install apps, use their website instead (ironically a free and open platform as well, there are lessons to be learned here)
- scarface74 5y ago
  It’s a lot easier to track your usage across websites than it is across apps.
  - realusername 5y ago
    No it's not, phones have unique identifiers, easier hardware access, poor cross-apps sandboxing capabilities, they also have no private mode, don't support adblocking & tracking blocking... There's a reason everybody nags you to install their apps on every website.
    - DHPersonal 5y ago
      One big reason for Apple devices is app notifications.
    - scarface74 5y ago
      - you can’t access the unique identifier on iPhones as an app developer. Apple blocked that years ago. - if you have found away to get around iOS’s sandboxing, you could collect a bug bounty - ad blocking doesn’t work well or at all for first party ads like FB, Reddit and Twitter use.
      - realusername 5y ago
        > - you can’t access the unique identifier on iPhones as an app developer. Apple blocked that years ago. There's an advertising id built-in into the device... Just the thought of that on a browser would make everybody scream. > - if you have found away to get around iOS’s ssndboxing, you could collect a bug bounty https://developers.facebook.com/docs/marketing-api/conversions-api/ https://developers.facebook.com/docs/marketing-api/conversio... > - ad blocking doesn’t work well or at all for first party ads like FB, Reddit and Twitter use. For now, only Facebook is resisting on it's own website with some obfuscation but I have no doubt that new browser apis will close that gap. For Facebook tracking on external websites it does work though, something I can't say exists at the moment in the mobile world.
        scarface74 5y ago
        Settings -> Privacy -> Personalized Ads - disable As far as FB cross app tracking, there is another article on HN where FB attributed $10B worth of revenue loss to Apple’s new opt in tracking prompt. It’s not about obstructing, a “native ad” looks just like any other post and is integrated into the feed. It would take some serious AI to block that.
        realusername 5y ago
        I'm not saying Apple does not take any steps towards fighting this, I'm just saying they are currently very far to the level of privacy of a browser. > It’s not about obstructing, a “native ad” looks just like any other post and is integrated into the feed. They have to disclose sponsor posts by law (at least in the EU). Right now they are using tricks of random divs to hide that to adblockers. When the browsers will add a contains-visible-text:() selector (or similar name), it will be game over.
vorpalhex 5y ago
Your employer can already do this on both platforms, and Apple totally bent over for China and their abusive apps. This needs a fix, and clearly we don't have one currently. No reason to let another ill occur in the meantime.
arrosenberg 5y ago
Can you explain how this is materially different from the apps corporate security already makes you install on devices to allow them to track and wipe the device? How it is materially different from what goes on my laptop?
- nojito 5y ago
  MDM is transparent. Third party appstores wont be transparent.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Students are already made to use iPads or Chromebooks with apps installed using the Apple Enterprise tools that don't have to pass the validation process and can collect all of their information. Same is true of employers and their employees. So what you are talking about is in fact already there, and Apple is fine with it and facilitates it.
- nojito 5y ago
  MDM is transparent through the profile you install. Same won’t be true via a third party App Store.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    App permissions are viewable in Settings- these are enforced at an OS level distinct from App Stores. Or are you suggesting that illicit apps are somehow able to break those restrictions and leak permissions? And bypass the permissions checks built into the platform itself?
andrewjl 5y ago
> that collect all their information You just described MDM. It has been supported by iOS for a long time, allowed to do exactly what you describe, and this bill won't change that aspect of it. The permanent solution to this are federal data privacy and ownership laws.

by nojito 5y ago

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> can’t wait for students to be forced to install apps from third party stores that collect all their information I'm similarly wary. But Apple and Google have been bad stewards of their market power. If the only thing protecting our rights is Cupertino's goodwill, perhaps that's an orthogonal issue for lawmakers to take up (and citizens to lobby for).

dodobirdlord 5y ago
> But Apple and Google have been bad stewards of their market power. Can you explain how? Because I don’t think they have at all. App developers are not their customers, they are business partners, and prioritizing customers over business partners is laudable.

realusername 5y ago

That's already the case with the appstore. If you value privacy, don't install apps, use their website instead (ironically a free and open platform as well, there are lessons to be learned here)

scarface74 5y ago
It’s a lot easier to track your usage across websites than it is across apps.
- realusername 5y ago
  No it's not, phones have unique identifiers, easier hardware access, poor cross-apps sandboxing capabilities, they also have no private mode, don't support adblocking & tracking blocking... There's a reason everybody nags you to install their apps on every website.
  - DHPersonal 5y ago
    One big reason for Apple devices is app notifications.
  - scarface74 5y ago
    - you can’t access the unique identifier on iPhones as an app developer. Apple blocked that years ago. - if you have found away to get around iOS’s sandboxing, you could collect a bug bounty - ad blocking doesn’t work well or at all for first party ads like FB, Reddit and Twitter use.
    - realusername 5y ago
      > - you can’t access the unique identifier on iPhones as an app developer. Apple blocked that years ago. There's an advertising id built-in into the device... Just the thought of that on a browser would make everybody scream. > - if you have found away to get around iOS’s ssndboxing, you could collect a bug bounty https://developers.facebook.com/docs/marketing-api/conversions-api/ https://developers.facebook.com/docs/marketing-api/conversio... > - ad blocking doesn’t work well or at all for first party ads like FB, Reddit and Twitter use. For now, only Facebook is resisting on it's own website with some obfuscation but I have no doubt that new browser apis will close that gap. For Facebook tracking on external websites it does work though, something I can't say exists at the moment in the mobile world.
      - scarface74 5y ago
        Settings -> Privacy -> Personalized Ads - disable As far as FB cross app tracking, there is another article on HN where FB attributed $10B worth of revenue loss to Apple’s new opt in tracking prompt. It’s not about obstructing, a “native ad” looks just like any other post and is integrated into the feed. It would take some serious AI to block that.
        realusername 5y ago
        I'm not saying Apple does not take any steps towards fighting this, I'm just saying they are currently very far to the level of privacy of a browser. > It’s not about obstructing, a “native ad” looks just like any other post and is integrated into the feed. They have to disclose sponsor posts by law (at least in the EU). Right now they are using tricks of random divs to hide that to adblockers. When the browsers will add a contains-visible-text:() selector (or similar name), it will be game over.

vorpalhex 5y ago

Your employer can already do this on both platforms, and Apple totally bent over for China and their abusive apps. This needs a fix, and clearly we don't have one currently. No reason to let another ill occur in the meantime.

arrosenberg 5y ago

Can you explain how this is materially different from the apps corporate security already makes you install on devices to allow them to track and wipe the device? How it is materially different from what goes on my laptop?

nojito 5y ago
MDM is transparent. Third party appstores wont be transparent.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Students are already made to use iPads or Chromebooks with apps installed using the Apple Enterprise tools that don't have to pass the validation process and can collect all of their information. Same is true of employers and their employees. So what you are talking about is in fact already there, and Apple is fine with it and facilitates it.

nojito 5y ago
MDM is transparent through the profile you install. Same won’t be true via a third party App Store.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  App permissions are viewable in Settings- these are enforced at an OS level distinct from App Stores. Or are you suggesting that illicit apps are somehow able to break those restrictions and leak permissions? And bypass the permissions checks built into the platform itself?

andrewjl 5y ago

> that collect all their information You just described MDM. It has been supported by iOS for a long time, allowed to do exactly what you describe, and this bill won't change that aspect of it. The permanent solution to this are federal data privacy and ownership laws.