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Strongly agree with this. I do not understand vegans who eat "imitation" meats. If you are ethically opposed to the slaughter of animals, why are you OK with p

Strongly agree with this. I do not understand vegans who eat "imitation" meats. If you are ethically opposed to the slaughter of animals, why are you OK with pretending that you are still slaughtering them by actively buying things called "chik'n" and the like? That seems extremely perverse to me: 'I don't want to actually eat animals, but I want to pretend like I do'. Seriously, what?

autarch 5y ago
> I do not understand vegans who eat "imitation" meats. If you are ethically opposed to the slaughter of animals, why are you OK with pretending that you are still slaughtering them by actively buying things called "chik'n" and the like? That is perverse. I'm a (25+ years) vegan who eats "imitation" meats. Here's why ... I like how they taste.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  And you genuinely see nothing ethically questionable with supporting products which pretend that they are made from animals?
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    They don't pretend they're made from animals. The labelling is quite clear that they are plant-based. What they do is mimic the form factor of animal-based foods. And generally that is just a sausage shape, or ground up stuff. There's no imitation T-bone steak AFAIK. If we all transformed into vegans tomorrow, I don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to eat items in a hotdog or hamburger form factor.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      > They don't pretend they're made from animals. Food and brand names like "chick'n" "mock duck" by their very titles literally pretend they're made from animals. > don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to eat items in a hotdog or hamburger form factor. The problem isn't the shape, whether it is a burger or sausage, the problem is the attempted replication. We should be moving away from the concept that it is OK to eat, or to pretend to eat, animals, not reinforcing this perverse belief. Vegan foods should, and do, stand on their own.
      - harpersealtako 5y ago
        That's just a branding gimmick, isn't it? I don't think anybody is fooled (or if they are then it's unobservant meat-eaters, not vegans). If I can try to summarize your opinion (tell me where I'm wrong), it sounds like the crux of your issue is that it's not just the action of eating meat that's bad, it's also the idea of eating meat and the rituals associated with eating meat. In other words, if someone eats a "tofurky" for Thanksgiving, they're engaging in something similar to eating meat, which reinforces the norm that eating meat is an acceptable thing, or suggests that there is a genuine (superior) non-plant-based version of the facsimile you're eating. The objection isn't purely "you could be eating tastier stuff", you think the end goal of more widespread veganism is actually undermined by the existence of meat substitutes.
        Ansil849 5y ago
        > if someone eats a "tofurky" for Thanksgiving, they're engaging in something similar to eating meat, which reinforces the norm that eating meat is an acceptable thing, or suggests that there is a genuine (superior) non-plant-based version of the facsimile you're eating. The objection isn't purely "you could be eating tastier stuff", you think the end goal of more widespread veganism is actually undermined by the existence of meat substitutes. Yes, that's an excellent summary of my thinking! Thank you for helping me articulate it. I don't think people are literally fooled by fake meat, but I just believe we should be moving away from the concept of eating meat imitations to eating vegan dishes which do not attempt to replicate animal products, but stand on their own, because ultimately the notion that we are still replicating flavors and concepts around meat I find very sad. Specifically, it is upsetting to me that people still view animal consumption as desirable, if objectionable. It is deeply upsetting to me any time I hear other vegan friends say 'man, I wish I could have a burger' or 'that bacon smells soooo good', because this still perpetuates the desire to consume meat.
        harpersealtako 5y ago
        It's an interesting perspective, I have to acknowledge. I'm viewing it from an extreme outside position (I literally kill and eat wild animals as a hobby), but an interesting comparison I can see might be to cannibalism. There's nothing practically wrong with making a facsimile human leg out of pork, calling it "I can't believe it's not human flesh", and selling it in a grocery store...but I mean, most people would find it distasteful and upsetting. They're not engaging in cannibalism of course, but the ritual of cannibalism, the idea of cannibalism, is unsettling in its own right to most people. If someone said "man, I wish I could eat people" unironically, I might not want to attend their next barbecue. Your view seems perfectly consistent to me -- if you believe killing animals is morally equivalent to killing humans, then meat eating could be considered morally equivalent to cannibalism. Even fake human leg is still creepy to such a non-cannibal -- even fake turkey thus may be creepy to a vegan. Perhaps it's because of the variety of reasons people are vegans -- many aren't truly abstaining from eating animal meat because they think it's wrong. Some are vegan for health reasons, or for environmental reasons, or because it's fashionable in their social tribe, or because they vaguely agree with anti-animal-eating philosophy but still internalize contradictory opinions. I know multiple adventurous vegans who would be ok eating roadkill deer if I served it to them (from their perspective, it does not contradict their belief that killing animals for meat is wrong -- it died in an accident, after all). But they would have a different opinion if I served them roadkill human, even if I showed them the human's death was purely accidental.
  - autarch 5y ago
    > And you genuinely see nothing ethically questionable with supporting products which pretend that they are made from animals? No, I don't. Honestly, I don't even understand how someone could. As others have noted, this is just branding. No one is being fooled, and the idea that eating "mock duck" somehow normalizes eating actual duck seems pretty unlikely to me.
  - cercatrova 5y ago
    What exactly is the moral dilemma here? The products are not made from animals, so what's the problem? I don't understand why if they just pretend to be made from animals that that would make them morally questionable.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      You'd similarly not see any issues with human meat substitutes being sold at your local grocery store? Curious how that's not a thing, huh?
      - cercatrova 5y ago
        No I wouldn't, because there's no human meat actually involved. If a store sold something they say tastes like human, but doesn't actually contain human parts or harm humans in any way, then there's no moral dilemma, I'd buy that substitute and eat it just fine.
        Ansil849 5y ago
        You're ignoring my point. Why is imitation human meat not an acceptable thing, but imitation animal meat is?
        cercatrova 5y ago
        It is acceptable, where did anyone say it wasn't?
        Ansil849 5y ago
        Please show me one grocery store where you can buy imitation human meat. Or ten strangers on the street who'd be OK with it compared to those who'd be OK with imitation animal meat. It is absolutely not acceptable.
        cercatrova 5y ago
aschearer 5y ago
Are you really confused why people want to continue eating the food they've eaten their whole lives minus the animal suffering? The food wasn't the problem, the suffering was.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  Veganism is not about suffering (if it were about suffering, suffering-free animal consumption would be acceptable, and it is not) , it is about a rejection of the commodification and exploitation of nonhuman species. Fake meats partake in that commodification, albeit as an imitation.
  - neetha 5y ago
    Interesting view point. But by that logic - you shouldn't use contraceptives if you're against having babies. Or kill people on video games if you're against murder. It's not like vegans imagine killing animals while eating fake meat. They are just taking care of their taste buds. In fact nobody thinks of animals when they eat. If people did, more people would eat less meat. And that's why all meat should look exactly like the animals they come from. And not random shapes that they are made into.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      My point is that veganism is an ideology and a philosophy, it's not just a lifestyle choice. Not eating or otherwise using animal products does not make someone a vegan--it's a necessary prerequisite, of course, but not the sole requirement. Actively fighting against animal exploitation is at the very core of veganism. Supporting and reinforcing a culture which normalizes animal consumption, or the imitation thereof, actively fights against this cause. We should be working to highlight how fucked up it is that people want to pretend to eat animals, because they 'taste good', not reinforcing the view that it's OK to do so.
      - joe5150 5y ago
        ", or the imitation thereof," is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this ideology.
neetha 5y ago
Because people like the taste of meat and at the same time don't want to hurt animals. They also want to maybe cook the same kind of food but without animals. What's wrong in that?
- Ansil849 5y ago
  The fact that veganism is not about solely harming animals, it is a philosophy which encompasses a wholesale rejection of animal subjugation; this includes suffering yes, but it also includes commodification and exploitation en masse. It is ethically extremely questionable to claim that you support animals, but to want to pretend to eat them.

autarch 5y ago

> I do not understand vegans who eat "imitation" meats. If you are ethically opposed to the slaughter of animals, why are you OK with pretending that you are still slaughtering them by actively buying things called "chik'n" and the like? That is perverse. I'm a (25+ years) vegan who eats "imitation" meats. Here's why ... I like how they taste.

Ansil849 5y ago
And you genuinely see nothing ethically questionable with supporting products which pretend that they are made from animals?
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  They don't pretend they're made from animals. The labelling is quite clear that they are plant-based. What they do is mimic the form factor of animal-based foods. And generally that is just a sausage shape, or ground up stuff. There's no imitation T-bone steak AFAIK. If we all transformed into vegans tomorrow, I don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to eat items in a hotdog or hamburger form factor.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > They don't pretend they're made from animals. Food and brand names like "chick'n" "mock duck" by their very titles literally pretend they're made from animals. > don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to eat items in a hotdog or hamburger form factor. The problem isn't the shape, whether it is a burger or sausage, the problem is the attempted replication. We should be moving away from the concept that it is OK to eat, or to pretend to eat, animals, not reinforcing this perverse belief. Vegan foods should, and do, stand on their own.
    - harpersealtako 5y ago
      That's just a branding gimmick, isn't it? I don't think anybody is fooled (or if they are then it's unobservant meat-eaters, not vegans). If I can try to summarize your opinion (tell me where I'm wrong), it sounds like the crux of your issue is that it's not just the action of eating meat that's bad, it's also the idea of eating meat and the rituals associated with eating meat. In other words, if someone eats a "tofurky" for Thanksgiving, they're engaging in something similar to eating meat, which reinforces the norm that eating meat is an acceptable thing, or suggests that there is a genuine (superior) non-plant-based version of the facsimile you're eating. The objection isn't purely "you could be eating tastier stuff", you think the end goal of more widespread veganism is actually undermined by the existence of meat substitutes.
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        > if someone eats a "tofurky" for Thanksgiving, they're engaging in something similar to eating meat, which reinforces the norm that eating meat is an acceptable thing, or suggests that there is a genuine (superior) non-plant-based version of the facsimile you're eating. The objection isn't purely "you could be eating tastier stuff", you think the end goal of more widespread veganism is actually undermined by the existence of meat substitutes. Yes, that's an excellent summary of my thinking! Thank you for helping me articulate it. I don't think people are literally fooled by fake meat, but I just believe we should be moving away from the concept of eating meat imitations to eating vegan dishes which do not attempt to replicate animal products, but stand on their own, because ultimately the notion that we are still replicating flavors and concepts around meat I find very sad. Specifically, it is upsetting to me that people still view animal consumption as desirable, if objectionable. It is deeply upsetting to me any time I hear other vegan friends say 'man, I wish I could have a burger' or 'that bacon smells soooo good', because this still perpetuates the desire to consume meat.
        harpersealtako 5y ago
        It's an interesting perspective, I have to acknowledge. I'm viewing it from an extreme outside position (I literally kill and eat wild animals as a hobby), but an interesting comparison I can see might be to cannibalism. There's nothing practically wrong with making a facsimile human leg out of pork, calling it "I can't believe it's not human flesh", and selling it in a grocery store...but I mean, most people would find it distasteful and upsetting. They're not engaging in cannibalism of course, but the ritual of cannibalism, the idea of cannibalism, is unsettling in its own right to most people. If someone said "man, I wish I could eat people" unironically, I might not want to attend their next barbecue. Your view seems perfectly consistent to me -- if you believe killing animals is morally equivalent to killing humans, then meat eating could be considered morally equivalent to cannibalism. Even fake human leg is still creepy to such a non-cannibal -- even fake turkey thus may be creepy to a vegan. Perhaps it's because of the variety of reasons people are vegans -- many aren't truly abstaining from eating animal meat because they think it's wrong. Some are vegan for health reasons, or for environmental reasons, or because it's fashionable in their social tribe, or because they vaguely agree with anti-animal-eating philosophy but still internalize contradictory opinions. I know multiple adventurous vegans who would be ok eating roadkill deer if I served it to them (from their perspective, it does not contradict their belief that killing animals for meat is wrong -- it died in an accident, after all). But they would have a different opinion if I served them roadkill human, even if I showed them the human's death was purely accidental.
- autarch 5y ago
  > And you genuinely see nothing ethically questionable with supporting products which pretend that they are made from animals? No, I don't. Honestly, I don't even understand how someone could. As others have noted, this is just branding. No one is being fooled, and the idea that eating "mock duck" somehow normalizes eating actual duck seems pretty unlikely to me.
- cercatrova 5y ago
  What exactly is the moral dilemma here? The products are not made from animals, so what's the problem? I don't understand why if they just pretend to be made from animals that that would make them morally questionable.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    You'd similarly not see any issues with human meat substitutes being sold at your local grocery store? Curious how that's not a thing, huh?
    - cercatrova 5y ago
      No I wouldn't, because there's no human meat actually involved. If a store sold something they say tastes like human, but doesn't actually contain human parts or harm humans in any way, then there's no moral dilemma, I'd buy that substitute and eat it just fine.
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        You're ignoring my point. Why is imitation human meat not an acceptable thing, but imitation animal meat is?
        cercatrova 5y ago
        It is acceptable, where did anyone say it wasn't?
        Ansil849 5y ago
        Please show me one grocery store where you can buy imitation human meat. Or ten strangers on the street who'd be OK with it compared to those who'd be OK with imitation animal meat. It is absolutely not acceptable.
        cercatrova 5y ago

aschearer 5y ago

Are you really confused why people want to continue eating the food they've eaten their whole lives minus the animal suffering? The food wasn't the problem, the suffering was.

Ansil849 5y ago
Veganism is not about suffering (if it were about suffering, suffering-free animal consumption would be acceptable, and it is not) , it is about a rejection of the commodification and exploitation of nonhuman species. Fake meats partake in that commodification, albeit as an imitation.
- neetha 5y ago
  Interesting view point. But by that logic - you shouldn't use contraceptives if you're against having babies. Or kill people on video games if you're against murder. It's not like vegans imagine killing animals while eating fake meat. They are just taking care of their taste buds. In fact nobody thinks of animals when they eat. If people did, more people would eat less meat. And that's why all meat should look exactly like the animals they come from. And not random shapes that they are made into.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    My point is that veganism is an ideology and a philosophy, it's not just a lifestyle choice. Not eating or otherwise using animal products does not make someone a vegan--it's a necessary prerequisite, of course, but not the sole requirement. Actively fighting against animal exploitation is at the very core of veganism. Supporting and reinforcing a culture which normalizes animal consumption, or the imitation thereof, actively fights against this cause. We should be working to highlight how fucked up it is that people want to pretend to eat animals, because they 'taste good', not reinforcing the view that it's OK to do so.
    - joe5150 5y ago
      ", or the imitation thereof," is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this ideology.

neetha 5y ago

Because people like the taste of meat and at the same time don't want to hurt animals. They also want to maybe cook the same kind of food but without animals. What's wrong in that?

Ansil849 5y ago
The fact that veganism is not about solely harming animals, it is a philosophy which encompasses a wholesale rejection of animal subjugation; this includes suffering yes, but it also includes commodification and exploitation en masse. It is ethically extremely questionable to claim that you support animals, but to want to pretend to eat them.