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Thanks for the awesome post! Really insightful. Most people in the tech hypes about US. Is it really worth as the hype to go through all these burdens and immi

Thanks for the awesome post! Really insightful. Most people in the tech hypes about US. Is it really worth as the hype to go through all these burdens and immigration process? Does it really make a difference being somewhere else (for eg. Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK etc.) and being in the states? I am really curious to know about it. There is a meme that most of the open source projects stand because of some European dude doing off the charity work! The European companies also offer work permit for the qualified people!

notyourday 5y ago
> Does it really make a difference being somewhere else (for eg. Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK etc.) and being in the states? Yes. If you are any good you would make at least 2x in the US. Probably 3x to 4x.
triceratops 5y ago
> Is it really worth as the hype to go through all these burdens and immigration process? Money and career opportunities. Silicon Valley is to software as NYC or London are to finance. Working there will super-charge your bank balance and future career path disproportionate to your ability (meaning: you will work far harder for far less reward in other places).
dominotw 5y ago
> Is it really worth as the hype to go through all these burdens and immigration process? Yes if you want the best compensation. No if you value other things like staying in your home country near family.
quixoticaxolotl 5y ago
It depends on what you're optimizing for long-term as a member of the software industry. Pure monetary compensation? The US remains the only place where salaries for junior developers begin in the early six figures and climb higher with career progression. Security of living? Probably not. A culture of entrepreneurship and a support network for your own entrepreneurial desires? Yes. Overall, I would say this is a great place to start a career as a foreign national but far from a perfect place to retire or even raise a family, unless you happen to be quite well off by that point.
- ballenf 5y ago
  Salaries for junior devs in the US start at 60k in some areas of the US.
  - pc86 5y ago
    If you have no portfolio, no previous work to show, come from a no name school or don't have a degree, or did very poorly in school, you're absolutely, 100% right. If you know the fundamentals, you can code, and you can answer LeetCode-style questions in an interview setting, $80-100k with minimal or no experience is certainly doable.
    - barbazoo 5y ago
      Salaries mean nothing if you don't take into consideration cost of living.
Swizec 5y ago
> Does it really make a difference being somewhere else (for eg. Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK etc.) and being in the states? Let me put it this way: In the 7 years I've lived in SF, I have built more wealth than my parents have in their entire lifetimes. A lot of it comes down to being surrounded by people with a can-do attitude who hype each other up instead of the European (at least Slovenian) attitude of "Bah why even bother trying? Even if you succeed the govt/people/someone is just gonna steal it anyway and the only people who are successful are crooks and cheats" It took a lot of work to get out of that mindset. In large part thanks to being surrounded by people who are the exact opposite.
- morelisp 5y ago
- BasilPH 5y ago
  Congrats on getting your green-card Swizec! I wouldn't generalize to Europe here. I think it's a common mistake that I often make myself is to compare the US to Europe as if both were homogenous. San Francisco is different from Detroit, and Germany is different from Poland both economically and regarding people's mindset. I've moved from Switzerland to NYC on an E-2 visa. I've worked multiple years for both a Swiss and a German startup and have been in contact with Swiss and German founders through an accelerator. I've never heard any founder or software engineer say that taxes, administration, or other people kept them from reaching for the stars. I've also learned that taxes in NYC are easily as high as in Germany and that paperwork in the US is just as burdensome as everywhere else I've had to do it. I think the reason that so many ambitious people are drawn to Silicon Valley and NYC is that they know it's a place where other ambitious people are. That's precisely why I came, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I went despite the high taxes (easily 3x of what I paid in Switzerland), higher rent, and burdensome immigration process because I want to be in this environment. You allude to the fact that people are what matters, but I feel that a lot of the discussion about what makes a good startup ecosystem is about money, taxes, and other administrative side-shows. Those only matter if you have the right atmosphere to start with, and I think we should talk about this more. Especially now that most of us are working remotely and physical location will become less critical.
kingcharles 5y ago
It really blows my mind that the US makes it so hard to get in legally and stay. The US is turning away so many talented individuals that could vastly add to the nation in many different ways.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  40% of Americans cannot afford a 400$ emergency expense [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-cant-handle-a-400-unexpected-expense.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-... Time and time again, any attempts to provide a safety net are destroyed at the onset. Majority of blue collar manufacturing jobs have left for China. Most states are flat lining and apart from tech what major growth industry is there? I guess if you work for a government supported industry you are safe (defense, military etc.) In this environment seeing people fly in from the rest of the world and earn massive salaries on the coasts while the rest of the country is being strip mined for every last penny that it has left is not something that will endure support for immigration. This environment has resulted in >50% of the population with a great sense of anger against the perceived causes. They will continue to vote in more and more extreme version of Trump to 'solve the problem'. Yes the US is risking its last growth industry but those people do not care (rightfully so since they don't feel as if they are benefiting anyway). I really don't know how the US is going to come back from this. The end result of this is some sort of collapse. There needs to be bold leadership at all levels that pushes back on the causes of these problems but I don't see anybody on the horizon willing to do this.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    I would take that stat with a huge grain of salt. According to the original source[1], of the 40% of people who couldn't easily pay the expense, 43% say they would put the expense on a credit card and pay the credit card over time. So the reality is that most people already have a balance on their card, and would put any surprise expenses on their card and continue to make the payments which they can afford. Less than %2 of all credit cards are delinquent, so it seems most people are affording their monthly payments just fine. Also, in the article you linked, they mention that the same stat for households making $100k+ a year is 17%. 17% of people making 6 figures don't have $400 saved??? If people are unable to save 0.4% of their income, no amount of economic growth will help them. This is a combination of the uselessness of self reported statistics, poor budgeting skills, and ambiguous questions. [1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/2017-report-economic-well-being-us-households-201805.pdf https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/2017-repor...
deleted 5y ago
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asdadsdad 5y ago
In terms of entrepreneurship, I don't really think is the case. You can build your company anywhere in the world with minimum first-world standards (any of the countries you mentioned) and be successful. Will you have more capital in the US, or will it be easier to get? Yes. Will your company fail because it's not in the US? probably not. Career-wise, meaning actually having a job and working for someone else, there's no place that compares to US compensation standards - some may even argue it's a bubble situation.

notyourday 5y ago

> Does it really make a difference being somewhere else (for eg. Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK etc.) and being in the states? Yes. If you are any good you would make at least 2x in the US. Probably 3x to 4x.

triceratops 5y ago

> Is it really worth as the hype to go through all these burdens and immigration process? Money and career opportunities. Silicon Valley is to software as NYC or London are to finance. Working there will super-charge your bank balance and future career path disproportionate to your ability (meaning: you will work far harder for far less reward in other places).

dominotw 5y ago

> Is it really worth as the hype to go through all these burdens and immigration process? Yes if you want the best compensation. No if you value other things like staying in your home country near family.

quixoticaxolotl 5y ago

It depends on what you're optimizing for long-term as a member of the software industry. Pure monetary compensation? The US remains the only place where salaries for junior developers begin in the early six figures and climb higher with career progression. Security of living? Probably not. A culture of entrepreneurship and a support network for your own entrepreneurial desires? Yes. Overall, I would say this is a great place to start a career as a foreign national but far from a perfect place to retire or even raise a family, unless you happen to be quite well off by that point.

ballenf 5y ago
Salaries for junior devs in the US start at 60k in some areas of the US.
- pc86 5y ago
  If you have no portfolio, no previous work to show, come from a no name school or don't have a degree, or did very poorly in school, you're absolutely, 100% right. If you know the fundamentals, you can code, and you can answer LeetCode-style questions in an interview setting, $80-100k with minimal or no experience is certainly doable.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    Salaries mean nothing if you don't take into consideration cost of living.

Swizec 5y ago

> Does it really make a difference being somewhere else (for eg. Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK etc.) and being in the states? Let me put it this way: In the 7 years I've lived in SF, I have built more wealth than my parents have in their entire lifetimes. A lot of it comes down to being surrounded by people with a can-do attitude who hype each other up instead of the European (at least Slovenian) attitude of "Bah why even bother trying? Even if you succeed the govt/people/someone is just gonna steal it anyway and the only people who are successful are crooks and cheats" It took a lot of work to get out of that mindset. In large part thanks to being surrounded by people who are the exact opposite.

morelisp 5y ago
BasilPH 5y ago
Congrats on getting your green-card Swizec! I wouldn't generalize to Europe here. I think it's a common mistake that I often make myself is to compare the US to Europe as if both were homogenous. San Francisco is different from Detroit, and Germany is different from Poland both economically and regarding people's mindset. I've moved from Switzerland to NYC on an E-2 visa. I've worked multiple years for both a Swiss and a German startup and have been in contact with Swiss and German founders through an accelerator. I've never heard any founder or software engineer say that taxes, administration, or other people kept them from reaching for the stars. I've also learned that taxes in NYC are easily as high as in Germany and that paperwork in the US is just as burdensome as everywhere else I've had to do it. I think the reason that so many ambitious people are drawn to Silicon Valley and NYC is that they know it's a place where other ambitious people are. That's precisely why I came, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I went despite the high taxes (easily 3x of what I paid in Switzerland), higher rent, and burdensome immigration process because I want to be in this environment. You allude to the fact that people are what matters, but I feel that a lot of the discussion about what makes a good startup ecosystem is about money, taxes, and other administrative side-shows. Those only matter if you have the right atmosphere to start with, and I think we should talk about this more. Especially now that most of us are working remotely and physical location will become less critical.

kingcharles 5y ago

It really blows my mind that the US makes it so hard to get in legally and stay. The US is turning away so many talented individuals that could vastly add to the nation in many different ways.

nebula8804 5y ago
40% of Americans cannot afford a 400$ emergency expense [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-cant-handle-a-400-unexpected-expense.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-... Time and time again, any attempts to provide a safety net are destroyed at the onset. Majority of blue collar manufacturing jobs have left for China. Most states are flat lining and apart from tech what major growth industry is there? I guess if you work for a government supported industry you are safe (defense, military etc.) In this environment seeing people fly in from the rest of the world and earn massive salaries on the coasts while the rest of the country is being strip mined for every last penny that it has left is not something that will endure support for immigration. This environment has resulted in >50% of the population with a great sense of anger against the perceived causes. They will continue to vote in more and more extreme version of Trump to 'solve the problem'. Yes the US is risking its last growth industry but those people do not care (rightfully so since they don't feel as if they are benefiting anyway). I really don't know how the US is going to come back from this. The end result of this is some sort of collapse. There needs to be bold leadership at all levels that pushes back on the causes of these problems but I don't see anybody on the horizon willing to do this.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  I would take that stat with a huge grain of salt. According to the original source[1], of the 40% of people who couldn't easily pay the expense, 43% say they would put the expense on a credit card and pay the credit card over time. So the reality is that most people already have a balance on their card, and would put any surprise expenses on their card and continue to make the payments which they can afford. Less than %2 of all credit cards are delinquent, so it seems most people are affording their monthly payments just fine. Also, in the article you linked, they mention that the same stat for households making $100k+ a year is 17%. 17% of people making 6 figures don't have $400 saved??? If people are unable to save 0.4% of their income, no amount of economic growth will help them. This is a combination of the uselessness of self reported statistics, poor budgeting skills, and ambiguous questions. [1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/2017-report-economic-well-being-us-households-201805.pdf https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/2017-repor...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

asdadsdad 5y ago

In terms of entrepreneurship, I don't really think is the case. You can build your company anywhere in the world with minimum first-world standards (any of the countries you mentioned) and be successful. Will you have more capital in the US, or will it be easier to get? Yes. Will your company fail because it's not in the US? probably not. Career-wise, meaning actually having a job and working for someone else, there's no place that compares to US compensation standards - some may even argue it's a bubble situation.