4 ms·

> If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through l

by rr808 5y ago

> If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long transmission lines that need to be maintained, it's just generated (roughly) where it needs to be, saving you a lot of infrastructure. So it certainly seems "fair" to offset that infrastructure cost at least somewhat - you are providing value to the utility in terms of infrastructure they don't have to build themselves. This is true if you're not connected to the grid. However if you use power on those cold winter cloudy days you need all that infrastructure still. The difference is when you used the grid's power every day that cost was spread over the year. If you only use grid power 20 days a year that grid infrastructure is very inefficient and costly. Net metering is an anachronism. You should pay and receive the current spot price which is near zero on Spring/Fall sunny days and super high in Summer evenings and Winter nights.

paulmd 5y ago
> This is true if you're not connected to the grid. However if you use power on those cold winter cloudy days you need all that infrastructure still. Cold winter days don't represent peak consumption for the grid, there is no capacity being built specifically for cold winter days. In contrast there is capacity being built to offset everyone turning on the A/C during summer heatwaves, and solar has high power output during those periods. Your argument is specifically called out as being a misuse of the "duck curve" concept. > Common misconceptions > One misconception related to the duck curve is that solar photovoltaic power does not help supply peak demand and therefore cannot replace other power plants. For example, in California, solar output is low at 7 pm when daily demand usually peaks.[19] This fact leads some to believe that solar power cannot reduce the need for other power plants, as they will still be needed at 7 pm when solar power output is low. However, California's annual demand peaks usually occur around 3 pm to 5 pm,[20] when solar power output is still substantial.[19] The reason that California's annual peak tends to be earlier than the daily peak is that California's annual peak usually occurs on hot days with large air conditioning loads, which tend to run more during midday.[21] As a result, solar power does in fact help supply peak demand and therefore can substitute for other sources of power.
- rr808 5y ago
  Possibly, I can't find an easy source of spot price over time. https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.html https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.html is pretty good for total energy used and sources. In the Summer 3-5pm could be demand peak, but looks like the total energy used is high over a few hours, even after sun down.
- oldsecondhand 5y ago
  > Cold winter days don't represent peak consumption for the grid, there is no capacity being built specifically for cold winter days. That might be true in California, but in Europe that's where the peak demand was before AC got popular. And it can easily go back to that with the spread of heat pumps.
  - fulafel 5y ago
    Europe runs from Siberia to Spain, there's lots of variation in winter heating systems. In colder quarters people mostly burn stuff instead of using electricity, but also houses are well insulated (because you need to heat all the time and you can't afford not to insulate).
epistasis 5y ago
Right, but that fixed cost of the grid is entirely determined by the peak capacity needed, not by average usage. And actual usage of that capital often has peak usage much more extreme than a typical 90/10 rule, meaning that the vast majority of that fixed cost is mostly unused. The key to decreasing that peak is the distributed storage that's paired with distributed solar. It allows massive amounts of cost savings, despite needing to beef up the distribution side of the grid for this to work.
- paulmd 5y ago
  Which - to go back to my "the utilities need to be paying fair rates for the infrastructure provided by clients" - if you're going to be putting extra cycles on my battery, you'd better be paying me a decent rate for it. I've always seen the idea thrown out as this abstract "we can use everyone's car as a peaker battery, it's gonna be great!" but if they are gonna pay distributed storage rates like the rates they pay for distributed generation, then fuck no, I'm not letting you wreck my battery for 50 cents a day. Utilities are gonna charge you 25c a kWh extra for peak demand delivery, and then be paying the actual people delivering it like 1c a kWh, you can book it.

by rr808 5y ago

paulmd 5y ago

> This is true if you're not connected to the grid. However if you use power on those cold winter cloudy days you need all that infrastructure still. Cold winter days don't represent peak consumption for the grid, there is no capacity being built specifically for cold winter days. In contrast there is capacity being built to offset everyone turning on the A/C during summer heatwaves, and solar has high power output during those periods. Your argument is specifically called out as being a misuse of the "duck curve" concept. > Common misconceptions > One misconception related to the duck curve is that solar photovoltaic power does not help supply peak demand and therefore cannot replace other power plants. For example, in California, solar output is low at 7 pm when daily demand usually peaks.[19] This fact leads some to believe that solar power cannot reduce the need for other power plants, as they will still be needed at 7 pm when solar power output is low. However, California's annual demand peaks usually occur around 3 pm to 5 pm,[20] when solar power output is still substantial.[19] The reason that California's annual peak tends to be earlier than the daily peak is that California's annual peak usually occurs on hot days with large air conditioning loads, which tend to run more during midday.[21] As a result, solar power does in fact help supply peak demand and therefore can substitute for other sources of power.

rr808 5y ago
Possibly, I can't find an easy source of spot price over time. https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.html https://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.html is pretty good for total energy used and sources. In the Summer 3-5pm could be demand peak, but looks like the total energy used is high over a few hours, even after sun down.
oldsecondhand 5y ago
> Cold winter days don't represent peak consumption for the grid, there is no capacity being built specifically for cold winter days. That might be true in California, but in Europe that's where the peak demand was before AC got popular. And it can easily go back to that with the spread of heat pumps.
- fulafel 5y ago
  Europe runs from Siberia to Spain, there's lots of variation in winter heating systems. In colder quarters people mostly burn stuff instead of using electricity, but also houses are well insulated (because you need to heat all the time and you can't afford not to insulate).

epistasis 5y ago

Right, but that fixed cost of the grid is entirely determined by the peak capacity needed, not by average usage. And actual usage of that capital often has peak usage much more extreme than a typical 90/10 rule, meaning that the vast majority of that fixed cost is mostly unused. The key to decreasing that peak is the distributed storage that's paired with distributed solar. It allows massive amounts of cost savings, despite needing to beef up the distribution side of the grid for this to work.

paulmd 5y ago
Which - to go back to my "the utilities need to be paying fair rates for the infrastructure provided by clients" - if you're going to be putting extra cycles on my battery, you'd better be paying me a decent rate for it. I've always seen the idea thrown out as this abstract "we can use everyone's car as a peaker battery, it's gonna be great!" but if they are gonna pay distributed storage rates like the rates they pay for distributed generation, then fuck no, I'm not letting you wreck my battery for 50 cents a day. Utilities are gonna charge you 25c a kWh extra for peak demand delivery, and then be paying the actual people delivering it like 1c a kWh, you can book it.