8 ms·

> I was shocked they needed 400A Seconded. I recently completed an all electric high performance remodel, and with 200A service, I can power a heat pump, heat

by danans 5y ago

> I was shocked they needed 400A Seconded. I recently completed an all electric high performance remodel, and with 200A service, I can power a heat pump, heat pump water heater, all electric kitchen and laundry, and an EV charger, with Amps to spare. This is in the mild Bay Area, and my heat pump draws about 6A (15A breaker). The largest loads are EV and cooktop/stove. A 3000sqft custom house built to high performance standards (airtight and well insulated) can be space heated in a cold climate with a heat pump that draws no more than 24A (40A breaker) using a heat pump. At that load a modern heat pump will make 40kBTU of heat. There are many examples of this across Canada. I just now read that they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. > plus propane. Apart from backup water heating when the power goes out, their hot tub will waste huge amounts of energy, so propane might be operationally cheaper than electricity.

wrycoder 5y ago
I'm running a small hot tub in central New Hampshire. I figure it costs me $15 per month in the winter. Edit: Service in the US is generally 200A or 400A. I'd say 400A is overbuilt for what they have, but that doesn't mean they actually use much of that capacity. For example, I average 1000 kWh per month, which is about 1.39 kW 24/7, or 12 amps average on my 200A service. The 200A is to have headroom for peak demands, and we probably never get close to 200A. If I were to rewire my panel (it's full), I'd go for the 400A - it's just heavier copper in the three lines to the entrance panel. That would not increase my monthly power bill right now, but it would provide lots of excess capacity in case I want to switch to heat pumps and electric vehicles. Since we heat with wood and propane and don't use electricity for either and have mostly LED lighting and a gas stove, I do wonder where all the power is going, especially at night. Too many computers, I guess. Add analysis to my to-do list!
- rhacker 5y ago
  It's funny how removed we are from reality. Even if $15/month might be cheaper than a propane bill, it would be far far more expensive against the planet to heat it with gas/coal burned at a factory 100 miles away, converted to electricity, then converted back to heat inside the spa water heater.
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    I think that an air/water heat pump on the tub, with say a COP of 8, would be less expensive to operate than propane or straight electric. But, I couldn't justify the capital expense. (Small hot tubs are electric.) I like my wood/propane mix for heating, because it's immune to power outages. At some point I'll get too old to cut/split/haul wood, though, and will have to figure something else out. I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system.
    - ryukafalz 5y ago
      > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system. It's that, as well as the fact that having a gas stove means you have a gas hookup in the first place, so you're more likely to also use it for heating. That in turn leads to more emissions than other heating methods produce.
      - wrycoder 5y ago
        Well, even with a catalyst, my wood stove puts out a lot of emissions. But, I don't live in an area with an inversion layer.
    - danans 5y ago
      > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. It can make a lot of sense in urban areas. In addition to removing the methane leaks (with their high GWP), it reduces the need to install/maintain expensive natural gas distribution infrastructure, and also improves indoor air quality by eliminating NO2 and CO production within the house. If the power goes out, you just use a propane grill in the backyard, or a small butane stove.
    - nybble41 5y ago
      > Small hot tubs are electric. S̶p̶e̶c̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶a̶w̶a̶r̶e̶,̶ ̶s̶m̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶h̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶u̶b̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶y̶p̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶f̶r̶i̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶i̶r̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶p̶u̶m̶p̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶d̶i̶c̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶r̶s̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶e̶p̶a̶r̶a̶t̶e̶,̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶i̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶u̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶u̶m̶p̶s̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶t̶e̶n̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶s̶i̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶.̶ Never mind. Apparently I was misinformed. The circulation pump moves the water through the heater, but isn't the primary heat source.
- danans 5y ago
  NH electric rates are $.20/kWh [1]. If you are spending $15/month for heating the hot tub, then you are consuming ($15/month)/($.20/kWh)=75kWh/month to heat it. Assuming you are using are using a resistance heater (100% heating efficiency), to raise 200Gal of water (typical small hot tub size) from 50F to 100F requires about 25kWh of energy. To only use 75kWh/month (255kBTU), you would need to only raise it to 100F less than 3 times a month, and that assumes that the water temp doesn't naturally drop below 50F (unlikely in NH). It's likely you are spending significantly more than $15/month to heat it with electricity. Propane is about $30/MBTU, which would work out to about $9/month for the equivalent amount of heat. 1. https://www.electricrate.com/residential-rates/new-hampshire/ https://www.electricrate.com/residential-rates/new-hampshire... 2. https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-power https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-ti...
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    I pay $0.13 per kWh in my town. (That's my marginal cost.) The tub is well insulated, with an insulated cover, so you need to account for that. My estimate on the hot tub cost is by comparing my kWh usage after the tub was installed to the prior year use. Most small tubs are electric, like mine.
    - danans 5y ago
      > I pay $0.13 per kWh in my town. So assuming $15/month, you are using 115kWh, which is 392kBTU of heating energy. It takes about 83kBTU to heat 200gal of water from 50F to 100F, which would be like 5 full heat ups from 50F. Of course there are the other convolved factors you mentioned (insulation).
      - wrycoder 5y ago
        Believe me, it's worth $15 per month to my wife! So happy.
sokoloff 5y ago
> they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. That’s an almost ideal case for an air-to-water heat pump though, the heat capacity and efficiency of which go up as the output water temperature goes down. Pool heating (and snow melting) are ideal use cases that can support a very low output water temperature and still get the job done (as compared to baseboard or cast-iron radiator space heating).
jcelerier 5y ago
reading this as a french, this is wild. AFAIK you can't even get more than 136A as an individual, you need to operate a company (if my calculation is correct - max. for individuals is 15kVa AFAIK). Huge majority is 6kVa / 230V => ~26A
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

by danans 5y ago

wrycoder 5y ago

I'm running a small hot tub in central New Hampshire. I figure it costs me $15 per month in the winter. Edit: Service in the US is generally 200A or 400A. I'd say 400A is overbuilt for what they have, but that doesn't mean they actually use much of that capacity. For example, I average 1000 kWh per month, which is about 1.39 kW 24/7, or 12 amps average on my 200A service. The 200A is to have headroom for peak demands, and we probably never get close to 200A. If I were to rewire my panel (it's full), I'd go for the 400A - it's just heavier copper in the three lines to the entrance panel. That would not increase my monthly power bill right now, but it would provide lots of excess capacity in case I want to switch to heat pumps and electric vehicles. Since we heat with wood and propane and don't use electricity for either and have mostly LED lighting and a gas stove, I do wonder where all the power is going, especially at night. Too many computers, I guess. Add analysis to my to-do list!

rhacker 5y ago
It's funny how removed we are from reality. Even if $15/month might be cheaper than a propane bill, it would be far far more expensive against the planet to heat it with gas/coal burned at a factory 100 miles away, converted to electricity, then converted back to heat inside the spa water heater.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  I think that an air/water heat pump on the tub, with say a COP of 8, would be less expensive to operate than propane or straight electric. But, I couldn't justify the capital expense. (Small hot tubs are electric.) I like my wood/propane mix for heating, because it's immune to power outages. At some point I'll get too old to cut/split/haul wood, though, and will have to figure something else out. I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system.
  - ryukafalz 5y ago
    > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas distribution system. It's that, as well as the fact that having a gas stove means you have a gas hookup in the first place, so you're more likely to also use it for heating. That in turn leads to more emissions than other heating methods produce.
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      Well, even with a catalyst, my wood stove puts out a lot of emissions. But, I don't live in an area with an inversion layer.
  - danans 5y ago
    > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking in favor of electricity. It can make a lot of sense in urban areas. In addition to removing the methane leaks (with their high GWP), it reduces the need to install/maintain expensive natural gas distribution infrastructure, and also improves indoor air quality by eliminating NO2 and CO production within the house. If the power goes out, you just use a propane grill in the backyard, or a small butane stove.
  - nybble41 5y ago
    > Small hot tubs are electric. S̶p̶e̶c̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶a̶w̶a̶r̶e̶,̶ ̶s̶m̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶h̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶u̶b̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶y̶p̶i̶c̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶f̶r̶i̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶t̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶i̶r̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶p̶u̶m̶p̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶d̶i̶c̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶r̶s̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶e̶p̶a̶r̶a̶t̶e̶,̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶f̶f̶i̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶u̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶u̶m̶p̶s̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶t̶e̶n̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶s̶i̶m̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶.̶ Never mind. Apparently I was misinformed. The circulation pump moves the water through the heater, but isn't the primary heat source.
danans 5y ago
NH electric rates are $.20/kWh [1]. If you are spending $15/month for heating the hot tub, then you are consuming ($15/month)/($.20/kWh)=75kWh/month to heat it. Assuming you are using are using a resistance heater (100% heating efficiency), to raise 200Gal of water (typical small hot tub size) from 50F to 100F requires about 25kWh of energy. To only use 75kWh/month (255kBTU), you would need to only raise it to 100F less than 3 times a month, and that assumes that the water temp doesn't naturally drop below 50F (unlikely in NH). It's likely you are spending significantly more than $15/month to heat it with electricity. Propane is about $30/MBTU, which would work out to about $9/month for the equivalent amount of heat. 1. https://www.electricrate.com/residential-rates/new-hampshire/ https://www.electricrate.com/residential-rates/new-hampshire... 2. https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-power https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-ti...
- wrycoder 5y ago
  I pay $0.13 per kWh in my town. (That's my marginal cost.) The tub is well insulated, with an insulated cover, so you need to account for that. My estimate on the hot tub cost is by comparing my kWh usage after the tub was installed to the prior year use. Most small tubs are electric, like mine.
  - danans 5y ago
    > I pay $0.13 per kWh in my town. So assuming $15/month, you are using 115kWh, which is 392kBTU of heating energy. It takes about 83kBTU to heat 200gal of water from 50F to 100F, which would be like 5 full heat ups from 50F. Of course there are the other convolved factors you mentioned (insulation).
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      Believe me, it's worth $15 per month to my wife! So happy.

sokoloff 5y ago

> they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it. That’s an almost ideal case for an air-to-water heat pump though, the heat capacity and efficiency of which go up as the output water temperature goes down. Pool heating (and snow melting) are ideal use cases that can support a very low output water temperature and still get the job done (as compared to baseboard or cast-iron radiator space heating).

jcelerier 5y ago

reading this as a french, this is wild. AFAIK you can't even get more than 136A as an individual, you need to operate a company (if my calculation is correct - max. for individuals is 15kVa AFAIK). Huge majority is 6kVa / 230V => ~26A

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]