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If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime

If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime usage and production would not have any impact on the bill. Either the fixed part of the bill or the nighttime price would grow as needed to cover the actual cost of the grid and the cost of energy on cloudy days. Either way, the new pricing would stimulate the installation of solar-powered batteries, to arbitrage between expensive nighttime consumption and cheap selling of surplus production in the morning. On cloudy days the grid would have to supply almost-free energy at noon, but then would also make more money at night because households batteries wouldn't have enough charge. I'm not sure if this is true in the summer, when even on a cloudy day there might be enough sunlight to charge the battery, but the actual balance would guide the utility company on how much to increase the fixed part of the bill vs the nighttime price. I am not usually a fan of the efficient market hypothesis, but here it seems to work albeit with some serious simplifications.

rr808 5y ago
> If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime usage and production would not have any impact on the bill. Right - but this is different that everyone expects it to work. People expect to sell power to the grid when the sun shines, then get the same power from the grid at night and offset them to be net zero cost. It is not sustainable pricing.
- bonzini 5y ago
  Sure, but nobody promised kWh offsetting would remain in place forever. $ offsetting can still save you money. Also, because you entered the solar market first, you might have easier access to credit to upgrade it with batteries. So you'll benefit from price arbitrage more than the late-comers who have just taken a loan to install a solar roof and can't afford the batteries right now. Or you might buy a plugin car, charge it cheaply when the sun is high, and save on gas expenses (that's what I do since I work from home, :) and it's possible to both top up the car and charge the 4 kWh solar batteries in most sunny days with a very small 3 kW installation). Which brings up another problem especially in Europe: taxes on gas are financing roads and the like in ways that sooner or later will have to be covered by increasing electricity prices. Right now, early buyers of electric cars are having their purchase subsidized because effectively they pay fewer[1] per-km taxes than owners of ICE cars. [1] not just less taxes, also literally fewer
  - rr808 5y ago
    Taxes on gas in Europe pay more than just the roads, they're regularly used for general govt expenses. You're right eventually the tax has to go somewhere else.

rr808 5y ago

> If everyone had panels, the kWh price for daytime usage would be $0 or close to zero. Everybody would still pay almost fully for nighttime usage, while daytime usage and production would not have any impact on the bill. Right - but this is different that everyone expects it to work. People expect to sell power to the grid when the sun shines, then get the same power from the grid at night and offset them to be net zero cost. It is not sustainable pricing.

bonzini 5y ago
Sure, but nobody promised kWh offsetting would remain in place forever. $ offsetting can still save you money. Also, because you entered the solar market first, you might have easier access to credit to upgrade it with batteries. So you'll benefit from price arbitrage more than the late-comers who have just taken a loan to install a solar roof and can't afford the batteries right now. Or you might buy a plugin car, charge it cheaply when the sun is high, and save on gas expenses (that's what I do since I work from home, :) and it's possible to both top up the car and charge the 4 kWh solar batteries in most sunny days with a very small 3 kW installation). Which brings up another problem especially in Europe: taxes on gas are financing roads and the like in ways that sooner or later will have to be covered by increasing electricity prices. Right now, early buyers of electric cars are having their purchase subsidized because effectively they pay fewer[1] per-km taxes than owners of ICE cars. [1] not just less taxes, also literally fewer
- rr808 5y ago
  Taxes on gas in Europe pay more than just the roads, they're regularly used for general govt expenses. You're right eventually the tax has to go somewhere else.