6 ms·

Not surprising as diplomat and spy is often interchangeable and there probably was a reason they were spied on.

by syoc 5y ago

optimalsolver 5y ago
It's also a bit rich for the US to be complaining about this kind of thing.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  Come on everyone spies. There’s no point in establishing an embassy if you’re not also getting an understanding of both stated and unstated intentions.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That's not the issue. The issue is the US getting mad at counter-espionage by Uganda while they are themselves engaging in espionage. It's very hypocritical.
    - cgriswald 5y ago
      It is the issue. Everybody spies. Everybody spies and is hypocritical about it.
      - pieter_mj 5y ago
        But USA is the most hypocritical about it. It systematically spies on its allies, with the exception of Israel and these 2 countries take active measures for some cybertools not to spy on each other. (or Israel tries to make it seem that way).
        godelski 5y ago
        I guarantee you that the US spies on Israel and vise versa. I'd honestly be surprised if there was a single country both didn't spy on. But I'd say the same about Germany, Australia, France, Spain, UK, Russia, China, and many more.
        aerostable_slug 5y ago
        Hell, DLI teaches Hebrew (once euphemized as "special Arabic" in some settings) [0]. That's not just for exchange/liaison officers... Not to dig up that bucket of worms, but there were Hebrew linguists aboard the USS Liberty. [0] https://www.dliflc.edu/about/languages-at-dliflc/ https://www.dliflc.edu/about/languages-at-dliflc/
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        That is simply false. Few countries hypocritical about counter-intelligence. You absolutely have to draw the difference between intelligence work and counter-intelligence work. Saying that going after someone for catching your spies is normal is totally insane, no one except the US does it. If Uganda was spying on the US in the US, then you would have a point. That's not what happened.
  - markdown 5y ago
    > Come on everyone spies. That's what they want everyone to think so that they can use it to excuse their antisocial behaviour. Tonga, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Peru, Mongolia... there's a very long list of countries that don't.
    - demadog 5y ago
      They would if they could. Those are mostly tiny countries with almost no resources to spy.
    - itsokimbatman 5y ago
      I don’t know about all of them, but a quick Google search shows that both Mongolia and Puru have intelligence agencies, which means very likely they have some sort of collection capability for HUMINT and/or SIGINT. The ones that don’t have intelligence capabilities are probably the exception rather than the rule, and I doubt they’re doing out of good will vs just not having the resources for it.
    - samhw 5y ago
      I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or genuinely giving a list of minuscule island chains, culminating in the country that's literally the universal metonym for 'middle of nowhere'.
- judge2020 5y ago
  You won't stay a world power by allowing others to attack you, even at a smaller scale with lesser weapons.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Counter-intelligence is not attack, it's defence. What this is is the US attacking Uganda and throwing a hissy fit when they defend themselves. If those were Ugandan spies in the US they could have gotten dissappeared.
    - martimarkov 5y ago
      First the US is not Saudi Arabia - they won’t make any diplomat disappear. Second - how did the US attack Uganda? I think your comment sounds a bit biased that’s all. If you share some light - happy to accept the points raised.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Where did I say diplomats? Of course, you wouldn't disappear the diplomats. However, they almost never operate alone - whenever there is a diplomat engaged in intelligence there are almost always other assets without diplomatic status. Offensive intelligence operations that the US has been conducting in Uganda are, well, offensive in nature, and are thus an attack. Not all attacks are an act of war. > I think your comment sounds a bit biased that’s all. If you share some light - happy to accept the points raised. I don't see how it is biased. The US applying sanctions on Uganda after they got caught spying by Ugandan counter-intelligence (under other pretenses, of course) is massively hypocritical. As far as I know using economic pressure to coax a country into accepting espionage is a new low. The US is trying to normalize and establish as basic expectations that weaker countries should just let it spy on them, and that's hypocritical above and beyond the norm.
    - aerostable_slug 5y ago
      Offensive counterintelligence is indeed a thing. We don't disappear people under diplomatic cover, we PNG them just like everyone else does. And when we do catch foreign agents without diplomatic cover, we imprison them. Why kill a useful asset that could be traded for someone on our team? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five
- IncRnd 5y ago
  An idealistic equality of actions using right vs. wrong is not exactly how diplomats look at things.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Agreed, but they are the ones that peddle that way of viewing things to their own population to get what they want, and they should be called out for it.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > also a bit rich for the US to be complaining about this kind of thing The U.S. isn't complaining as much as shutting down a threat vector. Shooting back isn't hypocritical. Also, you get the right to complain when you're allies, just as Germany had the right to complain when the NSA was caught tapping Merkel.

Not surprising as diplomat and spy is often interchangeable and there probably was a reason they were spied on.

by syoc 5y ago

Not surprising as diplomat and spy is often interchangeable and there probably was a reason they were spied on.

optimalsolver 5y ago

It's also a bit rich for the US to be complaining about this kind of thing.

jdavis703 5y ago
Come on everyone spies. There’s no point in establishing an embassy if you’re not also getting an understanding of both stated and unstated intentions.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That's not the issue. The issue is the US getting mad at counter-espionage by Uganda while they are themselves engaging in espionage. It's very hypocritical.
  - cgriswald 5y ago
    It is the issue. Everybody spies. Everybody spies and is hypocritical about it.
    - pieter_mj 5y ago
      But USA is the most hypocritical about it. It systematically spies on its allies, with the exception of Israel and these 2 countries take active measures for some cybertools not to spy on each other. (or Israel tries to make it seem that way).
      - godelski 5y ago
        I guarantee you that the US spies on Israel and vise versa. I'd honestly be surprised if there was a single country both didn't spy on. But I'd say the same about Germany, Australia, France, Spain, UK, Russia, China, and many more.
        aerostable_slug 5y ago
        Hell, DLI teaches Hebrew (once euphemized as "special Arabic" in some settings) [0]. That's not just for exchange/liaison officers... Not to dig up that bucket of worms, but there were Hebrew linguists aboard the USS Liberty. [0] https://www.dliflc.edu/about/languages-at-dliflc/ https://www.dliflc.edu/about/languages-at-dliflc/
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      That is simply false. Few countries hypocritical about counter-intelligence. You absolutely have to draw the difference between intelligence work and counter-intelligence work. Saying that going after someone for catching your spies is normal is totally insane, no one except the US does it. If Uganda was spying on the US in the US, then you would have a point. That's not what happened.
- markdown 5y ago
  > Come on everyone spies. That's what they want everyone to think so that they can use it to excuse their antisocial behaviour. Tonga, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Peru, Mongolia... there's a very long list of countries that don't.
  - demadog 5y ago
    They would if they could. Those are mostly tiny countries with almost no resources to spy.
  - itsokimbatman 5y ago
    I don’t know about all of them, but a quick Google search shows that both Mongolia and Puru have intelligence agencies, which means very likely they have some sort of collection capability for HUMINT and/or SIGINT. The ones that don’t have intelligence capabilities are probably the exception rather than the rule, and I doubt they’re doing out of good will vs just not having the resources for it.
  - samhw 5y ago
    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or genuinely giving a list of minuscule island chains, culminating in the country that's literally the universal metonym for 'middle of nowhere'.
judge2020 5y ago
You won't stay a world power by allowing others to attack you, even at a smaller scale with lesser weapons.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Counter-intelligence is not attack, it's defence. What this is is the US attacking Uganda and throwing a hissy fit when they defend themselves. If those were Ugandan spies in the US they could have gotten dissappeared.
  - martimarkov 5y ago
    First the US is not Saudi Arabia - they won’t make any diplomat disappear. Second - how did the US attack Uganda? I think your comment sounds a bit biased that’s all. If you share some light - happy to accept the points raised.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Where did I say diplomats? Of course, you wouldn't disappear the diplomats. However, they almost never operate alone - whenever there is a diplomat engaged in intelligence there are almost always other assets without diplomatic status. Offensive intelligence operations that the US has been conducting in Uganda are, well, offensive in nature, and are thus an attack. Not all attacks are an act of war. > I think your comment sounds a bit biased that’s all. If you share some light - happy to accept the points raised. I don't see how it is biased. The US applying sanctions on Uganda after they got caught spying by Ugandan counter-intelligence (under other pretenses, of course) is massively hypocritical. As far as I know using economic pressure to coax a country into accepting espionage is a new low. The US is trying to normalize and establish as basic expectations that weaker countries should just let it spy on them, and that's hypocritical above and beyond the norm.
  - aerostable_slug 5y ago
    Offensive counterintelligence is indeed a thing. We don't disappear people under diplomatic cover, we PNG them just like everyone else does. And when we do catch foreign agents without diplomatic cover, we imprison them. Why kill a useful asset that could be traded for someone on our team? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five
IncRnd 5y ago
An idealistic equality of actions using right vs. wrong is not exactly how diplomats look at things.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Agreed, but they are the ones that peddle that way of viewing things to their own population to get what they want, and they should be called out for it.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> also a bit rich for the US to be complaining about this kind of thing The U.S. isn't complaining as much as shutting down a threat vector. Shooting back isn't hypocritical. Also, you get the right to complain when you're allies, just as Germany had the right to complain when the NSA was caught tapping Merkel.