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One thing that's missing from this is that with current California net metering, for new solar customers, you can't dump a kWh on the grid at noon and then swap

One thing that's missing from this is that with current California net metering, for new solar customers, you can't dump a kWh on the grid at noon and then swap it for one at 7pm at the top of the duck curve. New plans are all time-of-use rated, meaning that you can only swap kWh within the same time of use band. At least, that's how it's been explained to me, I have not yet been able to find any explicit rules on PG&E's site explaining how time of use and net metering interact. (And for that matter, PG&E goes to nearly excessive length to avoid describing how anything works, what the actual rates and charges are, or generally putting the most useless pablum on their website.) I think that all of these market designs and pricing schemes need to be made with an eye on getting to the lowest cost zero-carbon grid. Current best models are coming from Christopher Clack at Vibrant Clean Energy, and all his modeling shows that if we deploy lots of distributed solar and storage at meters, and upgrade distribution, we end up saving massive amounts of money over the decades. The reason is that by having distributed solar and storage, you can massively reduce other fixed cost parts of the grid as they age out. So really we need net metering policy that encourages that sort of capital investments today, and not just in the wealthiest neighborhoods that have good credit scores or $20k to spend on home improvement on homes occupied by owners, but all over the grid, including rentals. That's going to take not only good net metering policy, but also new innovation in financing and entrepreneurship. Figuring out how to convince landlords to let you install solar and storage all over, and integrating that into a virtual power plant is a nut that somebody needs to crack. Maybe it won't be entrepreneurs, maybe it will be cities making municipal Virtual Power Plants to meet their own ambitious climate goals. But there are a few key pieces missing from the best possible, most economical efficient, energy transition. And if we just let the utilities dictate policy, we will not be getting anything like the most economically efficient grid, we will get grids where they can make maximum profit.

conk 5y ago
For each kwh you feed to the grid you get a credit for the value of that kWh during that time. Say off-peak is $.20 and peak is $.40 (this is an exaggeration but makes the math easy). You would need to feed 2 kWh to the grid during off peak to cover 1 kWh drawn from the grid during peak usage. On top of this there are non-by passable charges for every kWh drawn from the grid regardless of any credits on your account.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Those numbers are actually really close to reality for some of the electrical vehicle rates, which go down as low as $0.21 for off peak, around $0.40 for part-peak, and $0.53 for full peak. Other TOU rate plans only go as low as $0.31 during some seasons, and peak in the mid 40 cent range.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way. Calculate it every 5 minutes, what you supply you get accounted for and what you use or that is withdraw you get accounted. At certain intervals these are matched and you pay the difference.
  - danans 5y ago
    > I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way. The wholesale/spot electricity market is a scary place, as some people in Texas discovered last year [1] Time of use pricing tranches are designed to insulate consumers from that sort of variability, while also incentivizing consumers to minimize consumption during peak demand times. Time-of-use electricity pricing has been happening in California for a long time, but only now is it becoming mandatory (there are still many households out there on legacy flat-rate plans, although they are being moved). Many parts of the country are just now introducing time-of-use pricing. As both the grid and loads become smarter and more resilient, we'll see consumer electricity rates reflect the underlying wholesale price variability even more, but probably never completely. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-bills.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-b...
  - ska 5y ago
    > I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way volatility could easily drive you crazy here.
paulmd 5y ago
> The reason is that by having distributed solar and storage, you can massively reduce other fixed cost parts of the grid as they age out. The article also completely ignores the concept that distributed generation can actually reduce infrastructure needs. If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long transmission lines that need to be maintained, it's just generated (roughly) where it needs to be, saving you a lot of infrastructure. So it certainly seems "fair" to offset that infrastructure cost at least somewhat - you are providing value to the utility in terms of infrastructure they don't have to build themselves. And they sell that power that you feed back to customers paying for "green energy" at a premium as well. (note that despite regular peaks occurring later in the day, annual peaks almost always occur during periods of high solar production - it is aircon during summer heatwaves that blows the grid, not cooking dinner. So you are delivering huge value in terms of peaker plants that don't have to be built to run a few days a year during those heatwaves.) I don't live in California but in 2020 we had heat waves and my local power company blew up 2 substations in my area from the load. That wouldn't have happened with more distributed power generation, solar production is at its peak precisely during those heatwaves that strain the grid so badly, but the utilities were actually making a big push at the time for net metering to be abolished and solar production to be reduced. And of course we still pay incredibly high transmission costs - we have 8-9c per kWh electricity but my transmission and delivery charges are approximately 12-14c, for a normal suburban area (I'm not out in the boonies), so obviously that money isn't making it into the infrastructure where it needs to be anyway. (Compounding this issue, of course, is that there are plenty of people who are out in the middle of nowhere, and I'm sure a good chunk of that cost is going to subsidizing them. If we want to talk about market distortions and ignore the greater social good - how about we move away from these hidden subsidies to people living in the middle of nowhere? Make them pay the actual costs of their roads and electric and other services.) Big picture it's hard to see the pushback against net metering as being anything other than rent-seeking by an entrenched industry. They're charging huge delivery fees and not maintaining the grid, and they're pushing back against remedies literally at the same time as their infrastructure is failing. They're paying you nothing for electricity fed back into the grid, while charging other customers a premium for "green" electricity. Pick a side, it's either valuable or it's not.
thomastu 5y ago
> I have not yet been able to find any explicit rules on PG&E's site explaining how time of use and net metering interact. (And for that matter, PG&E goes to nearly excessive length to avoid describing how anything works, what the actual rates and charges are, or generally putting the most useless pablum on their website.) PGE explains this for retail customers right here: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/solar-and-vehicles/green-energy-incentives/solar-and-renewable-metering-and-billing/how-to-read-your-bill/how-to-read-your-bill.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/solar-and-vehicles/gre... The various rate schedules for the different NEM interconnections are also published and easily found. e.g. for NEM2 - https://www.pge.com/en_US/for-our-business-partners/interconnection-renewables/net-energy-metering/nem-multiple-tariff.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/for-our-business-partners/intercon... (the actual tariff is on the pdf link on the right hand side - https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHED...). Each rate will have some text like this which describes what the rate is. > All rates charged under this schedule will be in accordance with the eligible customer-generator’s PG&E otherwise-applicable metered rate schedule (OAS). So if you are a PGE customer on the E-TOU-C rate schedule, NEM2 (roughly) credits your excess generation under that schedule. Part of this should hopefully move new home-owners to either install batteries or if that is cost prohibitive, install west-facing panels.

conk 5y ago

For each kwh you feed to the grid you get a credit for the value of that kWh during that time. Say off-peak is $.20 and peak is $.40 (this is an exaggeration but makes the math easy). You would need to feed 2 kWh to the grid during off peak to cover 1 kWh drawn from the grid during peak usage. On top of this there are non-by passable charges for every kWh drawn from the grid regardless of any credits on your account.

epistasis 5y ago
Those numbers are actually really close to reality for some of the electrical vehicle rates, which go down as low as $0.21 for off peak, around $0.40 for part-peak, and $0.53 for full peak. Other TOU rate plans only go as low as $0.31 during some seasons, and peak in the mid 40 cent range.
Ekaros 5y ago
I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way. Calculate it every 5 minutes, what you supply you get accounted for and what you use or that is withdraw you get accounted. At certain intervals these are matched and you pay the difference.
- danans 5y ago
  > I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way. The wholesale/spot electricity market is a scary place, as some people in Texas discovered last year [1] Time of use pricing tranches are designed to insulate consumers from that sort of variability, while also incentivizing consumers to minimize consumption during peak demand times. Time-of-use electricity pricing has been happening in California for a long time, but only now is it becoming mandatory (there are still many households out there on legacy flat-rate plans, although they are being moved). Many parts of the country are just now introducing time-of-use pricing. As both the grid and loads become smarter and more resilient, we'll see consumer electricity rates reflect the underlying wholesale price variability even more, but probably never completely. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-bills.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-b...
- ska 5y ago
  > I see no reason why not do this in proper spot market way volatility could easily drive you crazy here.

paulmd 5y ago

> The reason is that by having distributed solar and storage, you can massively reduce other fixed cost parts of the grid as they age out. The article also completely ignores the concept that distributed generation can actually reduce infrastructure needs. If you're generating the power at the "last mile" and sending it to your neighbor, that power doesn't travel through a substation, it doesn't travel through long transmission lines that need to be maintained, it's just generated (roughly) where it needs to be, saving you a lot of infrastructure. So it certainly seems "fair" to offset that infrastructure cost at least somewhat - you are providing value to the utility in terms of infrastructure they don't have to build themselves. And they sell that power that you feed back to customers paying for "green energy" at a premium as well. (note that despite regular peaks occurring later in the day, annual peaks almost always occur during periods of high solar production - it is aircon during summer heatwaves that blows the grid, not cooking dinner. So you are delivering huge value in terms of peaker plants that don't have to be built to run a few days a year during those heatwaves.) I don't live in California but in 2020 we had heat waves and my local power company blew up 2 substations in my area from the load. That wouldn't have happened with more distributed power generation, solar production is at its peak precisely during those heatwaves that strain the grid so badly, but the utilities were actually making a big push at the time for net metering to be abolished and solar production to be reduced. And of course we still pay incredibly high transmission costs - we have 8-9c per kWh electricity but my transmission and delivery charges are approximately 12-14c, for a normal suburban area (I'm not out in the boonies), so obviously that money isn't making it into the infrastructure where it needs to be anyway. (Compounding this issue, of course, is that there are plenty of people who are out in the middle of nowhere, and I'm sure a good chunk of that cost is going to subsidizing them. If we want to talk about market distortions and ignore the greater social good - how about we move away from these hidden subsidies to people living in the middle of nowhere? Make them pay the actual costs of their roads and electric and other services.) Big picture it's hard to see the pushback against net metering as being anything other than rent-seeking by an entrenched industry. They're charging huge delivery fees and not maintaining the grid, and they're pushing back against remedies literally at the same time as their infrastructure is failing. They're paying you nothing for electricity fed back into the grid, while charging other customers a premium for "green" electricity. Pick a side, it's either valuable or it's not.

thomastu 5y ago

> I have not yet been able to find any explicit rules on PG&E's site explaining how time of use and net metering interact. (And for that matter, PG&E goes to nearly excessive length to avoid describing how anything works, what the actual rates and charges are, or generally putting the most useless pablum on their website.) PGE explains this for retail customers right here: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/solar-and-vehicles/green-energy-incentives/solar-and-renewable-metering-and-billing/how-to-read-your-bill/how-to-read-your-bill.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/solar-and-vehicles/gre... The various rate schedules for the different NEM interconnections are also published and easily found. e.g. for NEM2 - https://www.pge.com/en_US/for-our-business-partners/interconnection-renewables/net-energy-metering/nem-multiple-tariff.page https://www.pge.com/en_US/for-our-business-partners/intercon... (the actual tariff is on the pdf link on the right hand side - https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHED...). Each rate will have some text like this which describes what the rate is. > All rates charged under this schedule will be in accordance with the eligible customer-generator’s PG&E otherwise-applicable metered rate schedule (OAS). So if you are a PGE customer on the E-TOU-C rate schedule, NEM2 (roughly) credits your excess generation under that schedule. Part of this should hopefully move new home-owners to either install batteries or if that is cost prohibitive, install west-facing panels.